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A comparison between contemporaneous reality and the John Titor narrative and what we can probably expect in the next few years
Here, in this article, we look at the John Titor narrative (or predictions) and compare them to what we are currently experiencing on our own (shared) time-lines.
Obviously the dates and the events that he described are at variance with what is going on in the world today.
This is to be expected after all. He entered our world-line template with a 2% deviance from his, AND both of his two presence(s) altered our general trajectory for mass consciousness migration. So of course, what we are experiencing today and what we can expect, will be different from what his time-line described.
Two John Titors entered our time stream (world-line template)
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I argue that while his narrative differs from our reality, there are enough similarities to be able to predict GENERAL TRENDS in our domestic and geo-Political future.
However, it is our shared consciousness that is driving the variances on the shared world-line template, and anything can happen.
Here, I will try to make some predictions on what I am observing and how they vary from the John Titor narrative.
Quick Review of terminology
Here’s a quick handy-dandy illustration to help you all from getting confused with unfamiliar terms or confusion.
The pre-birth world-line template is that surface that our travels tend to follow. We can “slide off” that surface template by techniques that I have discussed in other posts as part of the Prayer / Affirmation Campaign posts. In which case we enter a new world-line template.
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Of course the John Titor narrative uses none of these terms.
We, here on Metallicman, use these terms to explain movement in the MWI. And it is with these terms that we will continue to discuss the similarities, the trends and the variances from what we observe and what John Titor reported.
Who is John Titor?
From the late 1990’s until around 2001, the Internet was “rocked” by the sudden appearance and subsequent disappearance of a Mr. John Titor. This person claimed to be a “time traveler” by using inter-dimensional travel.
He was rapidly dismissed as a hoax, in unity, by all the major debunking organizations, and his posts mysteriously disappeared off the Internet. Since then, all the sources that he posted on all found that their files related to John Titor were all corrupted and could not be reclaimed.
That was the case for over a decade.
Then, in 2014, a number of private individuals managed to piece together independently saved dialogs relating to John Titor. They constructed numerous websites that hosted these reclaimed dialogs, and posted them on the Internet for others to view.
It is the official belief here on Metallicman that the narrative by this John Titor fellow has much more validity...
... than the claim that it is simply a fictional story designed to amuse internet readers.
However, our belief is that the John Titor time-line is substantially different from the one where most (of the MM readership) reside.
This significant difference is very important to understand the validity and accuracy of his descriptions.
Thus you cannot, and should not, take his narrative as a 100% accurate predictor of events on our world-line template.
But instead, rather look at the TRENDS that he recounted and compare them to what we are experiencing.
If you wish to read his posts, and MM evaluations of his technology, you might find visiting the Metallicman Index on this subject enlightening.
I have no problems with the physics involved in his dimensional travel, or his “time travel” mechanism and mounting vehicle. It’s a method and a technique. It also solves certain problems that he did not get into because his readership was unaware of these other issues that crop up in dimensional travel.
One of the problems with world-line travel is the great diversity of world-lines. You can "clamp down" and lock onto very similar world-lines without much problem with his gravity sensors. But that is where you are stuck. If you wanted to go to a specific types of world-line, such as one where all Pizza has pineapple on it, you will be out of luck.
Not that it would be a problem mind you. Pizza with pineapple? Yuck!
The way around this is to additionally measure other criteria other than gravity. The obvious is <redacted> but also <redacted> and other features similar to that are also important and can be used and are actually easy to measure. Obviously, you just need to use the appropriate filters on your sensors, and then the complete sensor kit would allow for a great deal of latitude in your world-line adventures.
His “predictions” are descriptive of [1] a completely different time-line and [2] a completely different world-line template. Therefore, it is like comparing apples to oranges. Both are fruits, but that is where the similarities end.
You simply cannot say that the future he described awaits us on this time-line. It simply does not.
But you CAN say that the same trends that he has described would be the same.
Trends stay the same while the specific details differ.
Why would our world-line template be different from his world-line template?
If both of our time-lines are different, how could the trends be the same?
It’s actually very simple. A change in trends are variances and deviations from world lines in excess of 4-5%. And he flatly described a similarity to our time-line or world-line template in the 1-2% range. Thus while the individual events, and times might be quite different, the trends would stay the same.
And what trends would stay the same?
Well, I would say that the trends that would stay the same, but manifest differently would include…
An American second Civil War
A major war with an Asian nation or two or three simultaneously.
Cultural evolution and changes such as social media.
Now that being said, we KNOW that the world-line template and time-line differs substantially from ours.
His provided dates are off by ten years or more.
Certain events that he described evolved differently.
The Geo-political relationships differ substantially from his descriptions.
Our shared world-line template compared to John Titor’s.
What I know in my role with MAJ
Now for the good news.
Yes, I shouldn’t admit this. But, I do have an idea of what lies ahead – in general. Not much. Just a few, a precious few, glimpses of the future. And none of the glimpses are really bad. Meaning that, for me personally, and for my life my post-MAJestic retirement will be pleasant and tranquil.
How do I know this? Well, it's a long and complicated story, and I will write about my retirement sequence in ADC Pine Bluff in later articles. But for now, just know that my future as I have seen it, does not in any way, resemble the John Titor narrative personally.
I know that my location within China will be a safe one. And that (for the most part) where I live and retire within will avoid most all of the turmoil that the United States will go through.
I know that that is selfish, but it’s all that I have to go on. I was promised a “safe place’ from which to retire. And here I am in China. So I am assuming that all things that are said and done, that maybe the entire world will go through changes. But my “neck of the woods” will be relatively calm and stable.
But…
…I might be wrong.
Of course, there could be changes that might whisk me away from here, and go somewhere else. And maybe then this period in my life is not what I think it is. Who knows? But my “gut feeling” for what ever it is worth is that China is where I am retiring to and where I will spend the rest of my life.
We will see how correct I am. You do realize that I am often wrong. A full 50% of the time, don’t you know. LOL.
Of course, a nuclear explosion in my city could also end my life, but still fulfill the personal prophecy. LOL.
So, yeah. The John Titor narrative does not match what I have personally experienced on this world-line template, nor does it match the projections of my future.
But that is just me.
Now, what this tells me is that the John Titor narrative the Russia goes “ape shit” and starts wiping out the entire globe; Europe, America, The Middle East, and China just does NOT HAPPEN. Not on this shared world-line template.
And while we (our template and John Titor’s) share the same trends they manifest quite differently. And we will discuss that here…
Comparing some of the things that I anticipate will happen to the John Titor narrative
On the assumption that the knowledge that John Titor imparted in regards to his temporal displacement mechanism is beyond that of a casual hoaxer…
… we can assume that he is what he said he was, but that is of little use to us at all. Two different world-lines and time-lines and world-line templates have very little bearing and connection to each other.
But the trends do.
And here we will concentrate on the trends. Those 2.5% to 4% deviations that both of our world-line templates share.
And using that comparison we can extrapolate certain predictive trends.
Much the same way that we use the generational theory of the fourth turning writings to develop predictive trends as well.
And in this post we will be using both tools to look at our comparatively shared futures.
What John Titor said…
John Titor said many things that do not match the world as we see it today. In his world, way back twenty or so years ago he viewed the world as a mixture of independent nations all pretty much duplicating the trends in American (with the exception of South America).
And while his domestic and social trends seem to parallel the events that have followed since, they are often wildly wrong.
7DEC21. Trump supporters storm Congress and take over the building.
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Certainly, today 7JAN21, it seems that the United States is getting embroiled in the very stirrings of a Civil War, that is not guaranteed. But it certainly does seem that way, doesn’t it?
But I can tell you’se guys personally that these kinds of details vary substantially from one world-line to the next. They mean nothing. Though the TRENDs might be maintained. Trends…
A disputed election.
A President that refuses to leave the White House.
Riots or rallies for one party or the other.
The news media freaks out.
So let’s look at what he said, then compare that to what we know, and then extrapolate from there…
John Titor made this statement…
The year 2008 was a general date by which time everyone will realize the world they thought they were living in was over. The civil war in the United States will start in 2004. I would describe it as having a Waco type event every month that steadily gets worse. The conflict will consume everyone in the US by 2012 and end in 2015 with a very short WWIII.
The only way that you can possible reconcile these dates with our time line is to add ten years to the dates. Creating this…
The year 2018 was a general date by which time everyone will realize the world they thought they were living in was over. The civil war in the United States will start in 2014. I would describe it as having a Waco type event every month that steadily gets worse. The conflict will consume everyone in the US by 2022 and end in 2025 with a very short WWIII.
Which pretty much makes sense and does agree with the Generational Theory of the Fourth Turning Cycles…
Yet, you know, if you forget the details and the dates you just look at the trends. And the trends are what is being duplicated.
Trends…
A point in time when people realize that America is not what they thought it was.
The start of a Civil War at some level of activity.
America gets involved in a World War III.
But then what?
I can, and will argue that anyone can massage any information to make it fit into what ever form one wants to justify their arguments. And that is something that we just don’t want to do here.
Let’s see some of the other things that he has said…
The United States is still a representative republic in 2046 but it was touch and go for a while.
After the war, the U.S. had divided into 5 general areas based on their economic and defensive strengths. Many people blamed the government organization for the war and the last Constitutional Congress was held in 2020 to officially scrap the Constitution and start over.
Fortunately, this exercise in anger pointed out how hard it was to come up with anything better. It was decided the document wasn’t at fault.
As a result, there have been a few small changes to the Constitution and the executive branch but you would easily recognize it. The average citizen is more educated about the Constitution and aware of the rights and responsibilities it gives them.
Federal power has been decentralized and the focus of daily politics is in the state senates. Federal law has also been streamlined but much harder to change or make additions to.
Well, who knows what will happen? In my mind, however, this is overly optimistic given our contemporaneous events. The idea that the Federal Constitution would be maintained, and that all the State Constitutions would regain their power back from the federal government is a long-shot.
I cannot say what any TRENDS that this might represent, but rather that this little bit of trivia describes an evolutionary result within his origination life-line. And that the division of power on the many other world-lines could very dramatically diverge from this point outward.
John Titor described his “future”
Though, this sounds like is a very strong parallel with contemporaneous events.
“This is one example of a theory involving “time shells” progressing in size and intensity around a gravitational point from all matter. The more massive the object, the larger and more influential the time shells around it (like an onion). —Like an isobaric map of potential time lines and “intentions”.“Perhaps I should let you all in on a little secret. No one likes you in the future."
He predicted the “Federal Police”, which was the DHS that was established by President George Bush after 9-11.
From the age of 8 to 12, we lived away from the cities and spent most of our time in a farm community with other families avoiding conflict with the federal police and national guard. By that time, it was pretty clear that we were not going back to what we had and the division between the “cities” and the “country” was well defined.
The John Titor future does not resemble our world-line template at all…
And he pretty much said that Russia would go “ape shit” and blow the shit out of American, Europe and China…
The civil war ended in 2015 when Russia attacked the U.S. cities (our enemy), China and Europe. As unusual and bad as my childhood might seem, I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Africa is not a pleasant place to be in 2036 although I would characterize it as recovering.
But the thing is, on our world-line, not only isn’t Europe and China enemies with Russia, but they actively trade with Russia. The BRI from China goes into Western Russia.
While U.S. trade relations with China have soured, as each slap billions of dollars' worth of tariffs on each other's goods, trade relations between China and Russia are blossoming.
The Russian military and the Chinese military have officers in all of their HQ’s, and Europe while pretty much aligned with America has been breaking away from that tight binding alliance and getting more autonomy to trade with it’s neighbors.
Missile Notice Pact Extension is Proof That Russia, China ...
https://sputniknews.com/world/202012291081600910...
Dec 29, 2020 · MOSCOW (Sputnik) -Russia and China’s mutual extension of the missile launch notification agreement earlier this month is an indication that the two Eurasian giants do not see each other as threats, Moscow’s ambassador in Beijing Andrey Denisov said on Tuesday.
And the John Titor narrative does not match contemporaneous situations on our shared world-line template.
Russia and China have always had a very strange relationship. Even the news I see now indicates that continued weapons deals to allies, border clashes and overpopulation will lead to hostilities.
The West will become very unstable which gives China the confidence to “expand”. I’m assuming you are all aware that China has millions of male soldiers right now that they know will never be able to find wives. The attack on Europe is in response to a unified European army that masses and moves East from Germany.
Also, please be aware that from my viewpoint, Russia attacked my enemy who was in the U.S. cities. Yes, the U.S. did counter attack.
Me thinks he reads too much American propaganda. There are some seriously invalidated statements here. They do not match the reality of modern contemporaneous China one bit.
There are no border classes between Russia and China.
Overpopulation in China does not exist. It is crowded, but the extreme bullshit that you read in America of starvation, lack of housing and infrastructure are all lies.
“Men cannot find wives.” Total and complete BULLSHIT.
There is no “unified” EU army.
“China is going to expand outward” Never happen. This is not in their 5, 10, 50 and 100 year plans.
The John Titor narrative describes a world that does not resemble anything that exists today on our present shared world-line template. making the John Titor narrative hilarious in it’s inaccuracies.
I guess you could say that. Taiwan, Japan and Korea were all “forcefully annexed” before N Day.
I don’t remember a great deal about media coverage during the civil conflicts. I would probably characterize it the same way you see coverage of Waco, Ruby Ridge and Elian Gonzalez.
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Again. This has very little resemblance to our reality.
He continues on about the World War
And it makes interesting reading.
The “pattern” of exchange in the war will not be a surprise.
Many people will perish as a result of starvation and disease. I would also submit that you already know if you’re safe or not.
The trick is to not turn off your fear when you’ll need it the most.
Australia is sort of interesting in what is unknown. After the war, they were not very cooperative or friendly (can’t blame them really).
It is known they did repulse a Chinese invasion and most of their cities were hit. They have a trading relationship with the U.S. but I would characterize them as reclusive and ticked off.
When people use phrases like “See what I mean”, “You’re not hearing what I’m saying” or “Something smells fishy”, they are indicating the primary sense they use to process information about a situation.
I find it interesting that my credibility and the phrases that describe it hinge on economic terms and whether or not I have something to sell. I don’t. I also don’t know how to clarify my position any better so I would suggest that if what I say angers you, it might be best to just consider it fiction.
Soon you’ll get bored and I will leave in a few months. Either way, it won’t be an issue. The “enemy” that was attacked by Russia in the U.S. was the forces of the government you live under right now.
He said that the US attacked Russia, and Russia responded.
He said that an aggressive China invaded Australia. I find that completely and wholly at odds with our present reality. It is so far-fetched and unrealistic that it makes me embarrassed that I even post on of his “predictions” on MM.
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But the distrust that Australia has with America is understandable. This trend is understandable if you are at the very least paying attention to the relationship between Australia and China. Mike Pompeo and Trump worked with Hon Scott Morrison MP to sever ties with China, and trash trade while ramping up the military This has most assuredly tarnished the trading relationship. When Trump left, the ties remained severed and the wounds hurt.
There is a great deal of distrust in the Asia-Pacific rim regarding America right now.
Yes, I think the New World Order idea tried to establish itself. I would consider them the combination of the old U.S. federal system, Europe, Canada and Australia.
He said that…
South America went relatively unharmed. However, there is still a great deal of internal conflict with conventional arms
In regards to the World War III event…
Yes, EMP took out a great number of electronic devices. That’s one of the reasons why we don’t have reliable technology laying around.
However, in the opening hours of N Day, the Russians did not launch any high altitude detonations. They knew we would most likely clean up after them so they wanted everyone outside the cities to be able to communicate.
Most of the warheads that hit the cities came in threes and exploded close to the ground. The heavy EMP damage was isolated to those areas.
Scary stuff.
I’ve noticed that when most Americans think about Canada in this time, they think about pine trees, chooks and back-bacon. It may interest you to know that most Canadians in 2036 are some of the most efficient, ruthless and dangerous people I know. God help Quebec.
Interesting.
The animal Kingdom is alive and well. I’m sure it suffered but there fewer people infringing on animal’s habitats now.
Nuclear war is a very undesirable thing but it is not the end of the world.
There are areas and cities we can’t enter and the environment did suffer a great deal of damage but we are recovering.
Isn’t Hirroshima a thriving city today? The major physical affects include skin cancer, infertility, infection, etc. Almost everyone has some sort of physical remnant from the war.
The entire country was affected, not just the cities on the coasts.
(5) Were only cities along the Eastern Sea port hit in the Nuclear War, or all over the country?
Mostly cities and large military areas in the entire country.
He continues that the War affected the entire world in one way or the other.
(16) Which country gets the worst in the war?
Again, the entire world is affected. Even if you don’t take a direct hit, dying crops and no water can ruin your day.
Well, that is interesting, but the lead up does not match what our current reality actually is…
What our current reality describes
Our current reality describes something quite different.
And these differences will shape what the TRENDS will lead us all towards.
I believe, that I cannot prove, that there are elements in the Chinese, the Russia and the American governments that do not want the John Titor scenario to occur, and to this end, they have placed “fail safe” mechanisms in place.
For instance, using China, for I am most familiar with it, the election of Mr. Deng back in the 1970’s completely changed the path and course that China was on. And the ideal for the idealistic fervor for “spreading communism” all over the world ended in the late 1970’s. Of course, no one told that to any Americans. Who still have this terribly distorted idea of what China is like. Which, of course, propagated by endless lies and distortions.
What we see today is a unified Asia falling into place.
Russia and China are teaming up. They have strong agreements with the SE Asian nations, and both the European and Middle Eastern nations.
So let’s look at this.
Firstly, what Americans think about Geo-Political relationships after four years of trump and company…
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Yes, I know it sounds and looks really bad, but isn’t this the exact way it is? The declared “enemies” of the United States are Iran, Russia, China, and North Korea. And the United States is fighting eight (x8) “hot” wars in the middle east, has over 800 military bases world-wide and is involved in all sorts of hidden wars sponsored by the CIA assets; the NID and NED.
This world view is in complete alignment with the John Titor narrative. It describes how an American conservative might view the world.
Which explains why the United States has so many military bases everywhere
You know “for democracy”.
Here is a map showing where all the military bases are all over the globe.
This map gives a distorted illusion. It provides the illusion that everywhere there is an American base, that that nation, country or territory is aligned socially, politically and militarily with the United States. Which isn’t even remotely true.
Now, let’s look at the world differently. Let’s see it as it actually in irregardless to what America or Americans might think about it or now.
The “real” reality 2021
Now this is a very simplified map. And I did so intentionally.
First off, I did not include any of the 8x eight nations that the USA is fighting wars in to be American allies.
Were America to be embroiled in other issues (Civil War, nuclear war, etc.) these nations could quickly flip to neutral or even align with one of America's "enemies". So I did not identify them as American-client-nations.
Taiwan is colored the same color as China, because after all, by UN treaty, and by Taiwanese law, it is a State of China. So this map accurately reflects the world as it is today, not what the USA wants it to be.
Taiwan stopped being an independent nation, and became a Chinese client state in 1972 by [1] The Shanghai Communiqué and the 1982 [2] Joint Communiqué and [3] the August 17 Communiqué. It's the 23rd province of China.
All of this his was codified and made permanent on October 1971, when the United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 2758, which recognized the government of the People’s Republic of China as the only legitimate representative of China at the United Nations and established the One-China Principle.
Smaller nations, too small to color are not colored in. This includes Israel and Hawaii.
Nations in blue are the EU.
They try to be neutral, but their leanings over the last four years has been with their Asian neighbors Russia and China. This is true irregardless to what the American media might try to portray.
Likewise, even though America has military bases in Korea, and Japan, and throughout the SE Asia, these nations align with their larger neighbors, not with far-away America. North Korea might have US bases and an American military presence, but it’s largest trading partner and economic, racial (Han Chinese) and cultural heritage is with China.
Other nations that try to be neutral or independent such as Greenland, or African nations are left uncolored.
India is trying to stay neutral, although it’s ruling class and media are firmly aligned with the United States, but it is large enough to have it’s own yellow color.
Leaving the world, more or less, resembling this kind of map if you cut away all the bull-shit, and look at things from a social-economic perspective. Instead of one related to military might and military activities.
This is the world today, 2021…
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So what do we see?
Look at the map. Can you see something interesting there?
America is pretty isolated in the world today.
Major, hard and consistent, American allies include Canada, the UK, and Australia.
The rest of the world is dominated by Russia and China which hold the lion share of factories, military weapons, political agreements, trade relationships and technology.
Europe is trying to be neutral, but leans East. Poland is an exception.
Australia should flip red in the next few years with all the problems that the PM Morrison caused though his alignments with Trump and company.
This is all very interesting. Eh.
It’s not what is being told to Americans through the American media. Instead America is being told to fear the rest of the world or else they will “steal our democracy”, and that America is the biggest, the toughest and the best in the world.
Of course, you could "nit pick" my assumptions and argue that the American neocons are actually correct, and that economic and technological and manufacturing capabilities are over-rated. You could argue that nothing has changed, and that national strength is a function of real and actual strength. If you believe this then maybe you should leave Metallicman and start reading the National Review.
Now, let’s imagine the world in the next four to five years.
The world in 2025.
In this we will follow existing trend lines. We will [1] assume that the USA will spend a significant amount of time, money and resources on domestic issues and problems . Which might include a civil war, or barring that, a civil disturbance.
[2] We assume that there will be repercussions for Morrison siding with Trump in his anti-China stance. And we will see Morrison and his nationalistic party lose the Australian elections.
[3] We will see the Chinese BRI expanding, and trade opening up to Europe.
[4] We will witness a complete pull-out and withdrawal of American troops out of Afghanistan.
[5] We might as well see a changes in political opinion regarding China and India relations. India will then wish to participate in the BRI rather than isolate and trust in the “goodwill” of America.
All of these are all just assumptions and extrapolations from what we are observing.
Resulting in this map…
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Thus creating a situation of a combined Asia against the United States Empire.
Now, of course this is all extrapolations with some pretty major assumptions, and of course, anything can change in the future. So we will keep things simple…
A united Asia is rising in power with global reach. It controls most of the world’s factories, a sizable and competitive technological base, and a whole lot of people.
And how America will react to these changes will determine what the future for America and Americans will be.
American reactions to a changing world
Well, we already have seen how a neocon administration (Trump) would react to a changing global situation. But their actions were not very popular. Donald Trump lost his reelection, and the global community has looked askance at the United States ever since.
What will happen in the future is unknown, but if the trends continue as they seem to be doing, then we can expect the following…
Continued unrest in the United States.
Depending upon how the various State and Federal government handle this unrest will determine whether [1] the unrest will end, or [2] get much worse. My experience with the American government is one that indicates lack of originality, an arrogance and a true lack of creative understanding of the deep and substantive issues that America is embroiled in.
My guess is that…
The unrest will get worse, and it will be aggravated by cold, uncaring reactive measures taken at the State and Federal level.
Which pretty much means that at some point in time, that…
Some kind of Second Civil War will occur in the United States. Whether organized in sides, or balkanized, or just manifest as terrorism, there will be shootings and deaths.
And I sincerely hope that this does not happen. If it does it means that the same-old same-old playbook by the oligarchy will continue to play out. Two sides will fight each other, while the rulers watch from the ramparts.
And if the various governments are not able to suppress the domestic unrest, they will “pull out the old playbook”, and attack or try to create some kind of major foreign war as a distraction. Usually, in the past this has typically resulted in the unification of the nation against a foreign foe. However this time, the conditions are quite different. And the results of this action will be terrifying.
World War III. Russia / and or China will respond to American aggression with a preemptive nuclear salvo.
Conclusions
While the specifics regarding the John Titor narrative have no actual bearing on the realities on this world-line template that we share, the trends and the trend line does. If the current situation DOES NOT CHANGE then we can well expect a gloomy outlook.
It WILL NOT be like John Titor described.
But it will be awful.
What I can say that is the severity of the war that America will be embroiled in will be directly proportional to the arrogance of the American ruling oligarchy.
We will need to watch and see what will happen.
I like to believe that the promises made to me at the ADC Pine Bluff during my retirement has validity. And if so, then what ever occurs in the future will not be as horrible as our fears believe. There will be changes, and in the long term, for our children and for our descendants, the world will become a better place for everyone.
Do you want to see similar posts?
I hope that you found this post curious. Please take care. You can view other similar posts in my SHTF Index, here…
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Phew! My titles are getting longer and longer, but then again, my subjects are getting more and more involved. Who’d figure, eh?
This post is going to cover a lot of material. It is going to be banging off the walls every which way from the crazed American politics, to the history of the start of the second world war, to what to expect when wars go badly for you, and a bunch of stuff from John Titor, the alleged time traveler.
Please do NOT be offended by my personal opinions of either Trump or Biden. They BOTH have a role, and important one. And both are fulfilling a serious need and space on the "food chain".
There are no absolutes. Just influences that infringe on our own individual lives, and liberties.
So, do not throw your computer against the wall in anger because I said something bad about Trump. Nor should you stomp off and spam-bot me because I said something bad about Biden. I have an equal-opportunity disgust for all American politics.
So...
When reading this meandering maze of opinionated discourse please keep in mind that the over all direction that a nation takes is encoded in our biological sentience. Remember that it would be a truly rare event for the cycles of change not to manifest. It has no bearing on who is the President of the United States, what is going on with Bretexit, or the international trade situation.
Do not fall into the trap of belief that we can control the sentience of others. We cannot. All that we can do is accept who we are, and ride out the changes while everyone else figures out their roles.
So grab a beverage of your choice and sit down and enjoy the journey. It's all about the human condition; a condition that you are all part of. Like it or not.
There are many students of World War II. There are many students of Hitler and how he came to power. There are many students of the battles and the technology of the time. There are also many students of the Geo-political conditions at that time. What few people are doing is comparing the actions that Hitler took leading up to World War II.
They never do this, or if they do, they keep the analysis secret. It never reaches the masses. It just floats away like the ash of a a burning pile of newspapers.
It horrifies me.
Yet, as a student of history, I was slow to catch on. I read the news about Donald Trump and his staffing decisions. I read about his election, and the “Never Trumpers”, and all the political in-fighting in Washington. For a while I too cheering his tweets, and his brash “in your face” attitude. I cheered when he responded and fought back. I enjoyed his attacks and it was a welcome change to all the fawning bullshit that we have become accustomed to.
… I also watched the “Trump Trade Wars” unfold. And I did so as as a man inside the technical-trade-logistics industry.
Yikes!
So, no. I wasn’t just some smuck checking my daily feed and cheering for this fucking jack-ass. Like most Americans were. I was a guy on the “front lines”.
And when he said that “China is stealing our jobs”, he was saying “Metallicman is stealing your jobs”. And when he would go traipse off to Germany to tell Merkel “stop trading with China”, I would find all my business with my German customers put on hold. Yeah.
Every time the news mentions China, they were talking about me, or at least things that would affect my life, personally. “You had better stop trading or doing business with Metallicman” Mike Pompeo would demand, “or, else you might have some color revolutions inside your country next year”.
So, yeah. I am biased. No shit.
I watched Trump paint a big red bulls-eye over my city, my house, my family, and my friends. I watched him start making crazy and arbitrary decisions, bans, and arrests… all in the name of “national security“.
You know, like banning “cat videos” and “lip singing to 10 second music excerpts”.
All for “national security“.
And I watched him, through his proxy; Mike Pompeo try to begin World War III. And try, and try he did. The thing was, no one had a taste for war.
I watched as it became impossible for me to communicate with my friends and family in the United States. I watched as applications out of the United States such as Zoom either stopped business with people in China or started charging outrageous fees to use their products. I did this in real time, and it fucking hurt.
Yeah. I could live in Timbuktu, and get Paypal payments, but Shanghai…forgetaboutit!
And I watched the American population, like the cattle they are, start foaming at the mouth.; believing that they are the best, and that they are invincible, and that small “surgical” nuclear weapons can be used, with no consequence what so ever.
Trump and Mike Pompeo would announce “I am banning all Chinese social media applications“, and the crowd would cheer with outrageous abandon.
American sheeple align with both political parties, and they always tout the narrative promoted by their preferred alternative Media networks.
.
And I was here, on ground zero, when he unleashed the biggest biological weapon assault in history during the busiest, and most crowded holiday in China.
Overall, it was horrific. It was a slaughter.
COVID-19B, the strain unleashed upon China, is the nasty shit. This is the bad mama-jamba. Extreme contagiousness, and outrageous effects. Videos were everywhere showing people having seizures and collapsing. The COVID-19A, the mild strain, is what Trump gave to America and it’s allies.
Nation
Strain
R0
Effects
Deaths
China
COVID-19B
15%
Seizures
4,749
USA
COVID-19A
0.1%
Chest cold
291,403
Can you imagine what America would be like if the lethal strain were to be released inside of America by a REALLY pissed-off China?
The Trump cabal of neocons single-handily suppressed global trade to such an extent that a global recession occurred. And I, my family, my friends, my business, and just about every aspect of my connections to my home-nation was under attack by this jack-ass.
Yet, I still believed. I still had hope.
Maybe Trump would do some of the things he professed.
But he didn’t. It was all a big “con game” from the start.
No wall was built.
Hillary Clinton remained free.
Wall Street bankers became outrageously wealthy.
No industry came back to America.
America became the despised pariah globally.
American are not back to work. Most are unemployed, sheltering inside their homes.
It was exactly what it seemed.
He was a popular clown, or puppet, acting on a stage entertaining millions of Americans with his non-stop antics. It was, for Trump, better than having his own television show. He was entertaining the world. And Shit! No one could shut him off.
We were all, a captive audience.
But it wasn’t until I started to notice that the “fire hose of disinformation”; the anti-China propaganda campaign had reached a Fever Pitch. And there it became clear to me, the eight unusual biological virus attacks on livestock, the COVID-19, the “color revolutions” in HK, and the largest armada in all of recorded history steaming towards China. Yeah! It was unmistakable.
No. This was not a “hybrid war”. This the the early stages of a global war with a major nuclear armed nation.
For FreedomTM and DemocracyTM!
.
Trump was launching World War III upon China on the illusion that it could be “contained” within the South China Sea, and “managed” properly. And the accumulation of all this anti-China activities resulted in the largest Naval armada in the history of the world plopping themselves off the Chinese coast and threatening China, Chinese trade, and Chinese lives. It included a vast flotilla of hunter-killer subs threatening all the shipping traffic, and daily flights of B-1 bombers and stealth aircraft with nuclear weapons probing Chinese air space.
…
Luckily a hot war didn’t happen.
The armada steamed home, and Trump sacked his Secretary of Defense for…
…<no one knows>…
… but WE know. Don’t we?
What’s up next.
This entire affair is not over by a long-shot.
But at least the crazy psychopath and his small army of neoconservatives are being displaced by better and more sensible professionals. And still, we at MM are the outliers. My opinion of this matter does not agree with the American media narrative.
Which pretty much means that it is correct.
The American media narrative is that Biden will be "tougher" on China than Trumps war-loving, killing-frenzy, neocons were. That's right! Biden is going to be tougher on China.
How is that even possible?
Nope.
The true situation is something that the American citizen-serf- cattle are never let in on. The real truth is that the Biden administration will consider…
China as an economic competitor to the USA.
Russia as a military threat to the USA.
Biden and Xi Peng have known each other for decades.
.
Of course, the hawkish neocons who still control the mainstream and alternative media are doing everything that they can to portray Biden as harder and harsher on China than trump. I’m not personally clear on the reasoning. Maybe it’s hope, or maybe it’s desperation in trying to secure or maintain some kind of control.
What ever, here’s a pretty good write-up on MoA about the actual Biden Presidency and what to expect in regards to China. And no, you won’t find this narrative in any of the three main American “news” outlets…
.
Oh, the narrative about “us vs. them” is going to continue all right. America needs an outside enemy to direct it’s frustration and anger towards. Perhaps you know what I am talking about. If you don’t read George Orwell’s book “1984” and refer to the Geo-political issues as described in that masterpiece.
The book is set in 1984 in Oceania, one of three perpetually warring totalitarian states (the other two are Eurasia and Eastasia).
Oceania is governed by the all-controlling Party, which has brainwashed the population into unthinking obedience to its leader, Big Brother. The Party has created a propagandistic language known as Newspeak, which is designed to limit free thought and promote the Party’s doctrines. Its words include doublethink (belief in contradictory ideas simultaneously), which is reflected in the Party’s slogans: “War is peace,” “Freedom is slavery,” and “Ignorance is strength.” The Party maintains control through the Thought Police and continual surveillance.
-Nineteen Eighty-four | Summary, Characters, Analysis ...
You all can consider the following Geo-Political alignments…
USA = Oceania
Russia = Eurasia
China = Eastasia
There are three major powers in the world right now.
USA = (Oceania) Oligarchy controlled military empire running amok. Populated by an intentionally dumbed down, weakened society, of work serfs. Military operations are the norm, and America is military empire with over 800+ military bases all over the globe, and currently fighting 8 hot wars. Americans view it as a normal occurrence, being in a state of war. Military is geared towards offensive conventional weapon operations outside the USA in far away lands.
Russia = (Eurasia) Fierce, pissed off people, who do not want another War where they are positioned within a defensive posture. They will NEVER allow that situation, a replay of World War II to reoccur. Russia suffered horribly during it, and Russians have never forgotten. Military is geared to preventative operations at a large and harsh scale.
China = (Eastasia) Old, smart, intelligent, and diligent. Does not want war, but will respond in a measured manner. On their terms. Using their timing. Planed for their advantage. Any attack on China will have an equal measured response within the continental United States. Military is geared towards responsive operations.
.
You will see the anti-China propaganda to decrease substantially and sharply, as it is already doing. And you will see a rise of anti-Russia propaganda. And I watch all this as an educated observer, and it horrifies me.
Firstly, because the lead up for war with China was so effective. Most Americans now hate China and support the idea of a (far off) war in the distant South China Sea. They actually believe that China would take the hits and not retaliate. They actually believe that it can be “contained” in a far away land. And now, soon it will change to Russia with a (supposedly) far-off war in Eastern Europe.
Secondly, that the ignorance of what China is, and what it is truly capable of is ignored, as it is discounted by most of the West. Which pretty much is the general American attitude of all other nations. And that is magnified by a factor of ten with Russia.
Thirdly, that the lead up for a war with China pretty much parallels what happened in the lead up to World War II. And we can expect it to be duplicated with Russia. So buckle up. Yeah. It’s not over yet.
Now, from my point of view, the activities will be directed towards Russia instead of China.
Yikes!
Russia? Seriously?
Russia is hard core.
Because while both China and Russia are serious, nuclear armed, nations run on merit and ability, they are also students of history and DO NOT PLAY.
China conducts Geo-Political actions using a "defensive policy". Meaning "tit for tat" responses.
So, if the USA military tries to destroy their latest VTOL carrier...
...two months later the US VTOL carrier USS Bonhomme Richard catches fire and is completely destroyed.
China always (so far, at least) responds to American aggression in a similar, and measured, manner.
But Russia is different. Russia conducts Geo-Political actions using a "preemptive offensive policy". Meaning that if a build up towards war becomes evident, they will unleash unholy nuclear armageddon upon the United States.
And why is this? Why is Russia like this, and why won’t they respond to American aggression like China has?
The answer lies in the differences in culture and society.
Krútost
During the last two decades, the notion of krutói (“tough”, “hard nut”, “smart”) became very central for the Russian definition of success. But even though the meaning is new (krutói means originally “steep” or “hard-boiled”), the concept is centuries-long. In it, you can find something in common with the religious search for purity, or the American obsession with self-help and self-improvement. But the starting point is different.
It’s the eternal Russian admiration of power. Our universe is choke full with predators—some benign, but many not—cruising and looking for prey in competition with each other. It’s about where in the food chain you want to place yourself.Topping from bottom
No one insists on depredation. But this world is not for the fragile. Even if your meek predisposition or your charitable ethics command you to linger on the very bottom, it pays to be krutói. You can duck, you can run, you can hide, you can talk your way out of trouble—the better you do it, the longer you last.
As a Russian, this is a quest nothing can exonerate you from. Ever wondered why spoken Russian sounds so tough, our ladies look so gorgeous, and the men act so macho in online forums? Here’s your answer.
No one knows what kind of riches waits for us at the end of this quest. Yet, if you one day find yourself reincarnated somewhere in Russia, expect everyone telling you in a zillion ways to pull up your britches and beating your ego into shape.
So, not only is China a serious, studious, thoughtful measured nation, but Russia is a nation of hard-core chomping at the bit, leather clad, biker types. I really don’t think that America is ready to tangle with them.
America is not ready to take on Russia. They, like China, DOES NOT PLAY.
.
To this, I will add…
As soon as the USA ramps up the “fever” of war for the American populations, you can well expect Russia (and possibly China) to preemptively strike America with a double-tap nuclear salvo.
And why do I believe this?
Because I, like the leaders of both Russia and China, read history.
China compared to America.
Pre-war preparations for World War II by Adolf Hitler and his cabal of Nazi-cons.
To really get an appreciation about what is going on…
And this is really what is going on, the United States is a bloated, sick, wounded, and terrified monstrous military empire in it's death throes, and tamping and threatening everyone around it.
And the global oligarchy is doing it's darnedest to limit the future carnage to the geographic United States least the entire world is destroyed in the process.
… we need to simply reread history. And I am not talking about boring stuff like names, dates and times, but rather the entire picture and the entire scope of the issues at hand. Let’s see how World War II started from the point of view of Hitler and his small collection of Nazi-cons sitting in Berlin.
Everyone who tried to fuck with Russia failed, and their nations were forever vanquished afterwards.
Napoleon and France.
Germany and Hitler.
America with Biden.
The following is a reprint of an Article on the warfare history network. All credit to the authors and the site. It was not edited except to fit this venue.
The decision to invade Poland was one in a series of risky moves that led to World War II.
By Christopher Miskimon
Historians often compare Adolf Hitler to a gambler. He kept making risky bets that paid off time and again—until they didn’t. Poland was one example because it led to general war. What brought Hitler to take this risk? With the benefit of hindsight it is seen as enormous, but what did the situation look like to the German Führer and his closest advisers at the time? The popular modern view of Hitler is that of a raving lunatic, screaming at subordinates while pushing phantom armies around a map in his bunker. While he deserves every negative epithet given him, he did not decide all his strategic and operational decisions from mad, angry rants. In the years leading to World War II there were numerous events that took him down the road from a promise to rebuild the nation to inevitable conflict. However skewed, there was method to his madness, which came close to paying off in the early years of the fighting. The war officially began with the Nazi invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939, but numerous factors led to this attack.
Logic, Planning, Revenge: Why Hitler Targeted Poland
While many of the calculations for war were based on some modicum of logic and reasoned planning, revenge, the basest of human emotions, played its part. German humiliation over the conditions placed upon the nation at the end of World War I had not abated in the two decades since the conflict ended. Over time the mass emotional reaction to the treaty stipulations became a festering sore among the population. This wound was ripe for exploitation by the Nazi propaganda machine during the party’s rise to power.
The Treaty of Versailles imposed severe restrictions on the German military. The ground forces were limited in size to 100,000 troops in 10 divisions, including 4,000 officers. The Army could be used only for the “internal maintenance of order” and defense. Also prohibited were staples of the German military system, such as a general staff, most officer training schools, and any sort of reserves or paramilitary groups. Additionally, tanks and heavy weapons were denied. Chemical weapons were expressly forbidden. Defensive positions along the east bank of the Rhine River had to be demolished for a distance of 50 kilometers from the riverbank. The west bank was similarly denuded of defenses. This left the country defenseless against attack.
The humiliation of Versailles went beyond just military limitations. Germany lost land to Poland and France. The French received Alsace-Lorraine, lost decades before during the Franco-Prussian War of 1871. The “Polish Corridor,” a strip of land given to Poland granting it access to the Baltic Sea, meant East Prussia was now physically separate from the rest of the country. The formerly German city of Danzig was made a “Free City,” controlled by the Poles despite its largely German population. All of Germany’s overseas colonies and territories were transferred to other nations. Last was a crushing debt of reparations, equivalent to billions of dollars today. (Read more about the conflicts and events that led to the Second World War inside the pages of WWII History magazine.)
The cumulative effect of the treaty requirements created a sense of injustice among the German populace, which the Nazis were all too willing to use in their grab for power. The party came into power on a promise to right the wrongs of Versailles and make Germany strong again. Germany suffered many internal troubles throughout the 1920s and early 30s, something the German people remembered. Once national power was restored in the late 1930s, it became a natural, brutal progression to use that power against nations that had taken German lands. The Polish Corridor stood out in particular; regaining it meant reconnecting East Prussia to Germany proper.
During the 1930s, the German armed forces undertook an extensive and mostly clandestine rearmament program. In this photo of the period, German soldiers ride in a wagon which is towing a wooden antitank gun.
With revenge in mind, the next step for Hitler was rearmament. This was the key prerequisite for any resurgence of Germany as a major power. Even before Hitler began rearmament in late 1933, the military had been secretly preparing for a fast expansion through a combination of training, liberal interpretation of the treaty restrictions, and secret weapons development projects. This allowed the Nazis to quickly create a massive military machine, faster than Germany’s opponents thought possible.
Initial steps included rebuilding the German arms industry so it could produce the necessary weapons. The plans for fast wartime expansion of the Army were instead applied to peacetime growth. The first increase was to 300,000 troops in 21 divisions. This program was to be finished by 1937, but Hitler advanced this timetable to the fall of 1934, barely a year later. During this period Hitler began to consolidate his power, moving against men like Ernst Röhm, the leader of the Nazi Party’s paramilitary arm, the Sturmabteilung (SA). He also absorbed the powers of the military commander in chief when the German President Paul von Hindenburg died in August 1934. Afterward German soldiers and sailors were required to swear an oath of allegiance to Hitler personally, a throwback to the oath given the kaiser during the imperial period. By the end of 1934, German Army strength reached 240,000.
On March 16, 1935, Hitler publicly rejected the Versailles Treaty and ordered a further expansion of the army to 36 divisions under a new defense law. Conscription was also reintroduced. Within two months another law created the Luftwaffe. The conscription program created a large pool of trained manpower, something the Germans lacked due to Versailles. Changes at the command level also made the German military more effective. The Reichswehr was renamed the Wehrmacht, with the three branches called the Heer (army), Kriegsmarine (navy), and Luftwaffe (air force). The general staff was rebuilt, and Hitler was solidly placed as the military’s supreme commander. Generals who disagreed with Hitler were retired or removed through scandal or accusations of misconduct. The Führer created a modern, powerful force completely under his control.
While this buildup was touted as smooth and organized with Teutonic efficiency, the process was difficult. German industry needed time to create modern weapons, most of which were only designs on a drawing board. Raw materials, trained labor, and factory capacity were insufficient to provide for all three services’ needs. The navy took a back seat to the Army and air force. This decision made sense because Germany’s primary opponents bordered the nation, rendering a powerful fleet unnecessary in the short term.
Making it Up as they Go: The Rapid Expansion of the Nazi German Army
Building on its secret experiments, the Army started an ambitious program for armored vehicles, but they were learning as they went. The first models were lightly armed and armored vehicles, which would later prove inferior to enemy tanks, though the Germans usually handled theirs better. Without making sacrifices elsewhere, it was impossible to build as many vehicles and artillery pieces as were needed. Hitler was unwilling to strain the peacetime German economy, so production rates were kept low.
The rapid expansion also placed a strain on personnel. There were not enough qualified officers and NCOs to fill all the required billets. Fast promotions and the recall of World War I veterans alleviated these problems, but only to a limited extent. Many of the veterans were getting too old for field service and needed refresher training. Many officers were lost to the newly formed Luftwaffe, and many staff officers for air units were ground forces men untrained and inexperienced in air operations. Another quick solution was to militarize entire police units to capitalize on the training and discipline of their NCOs and officers.
In a bold and risky maneuver, Hitler ordered German troops into the Rhineland in the spring of 1936. Hitler’s generals feared the aggressive move would spark French military intervention.
Despite these difficulties, rearmament did produce results. By October 1937, the army reached an active strength of 39 divisions in 14 corps, including three panzer and four motorized divisions. There were 29 divisions in reserve with more of their soldiers having recent training through the conscription program. In 1938, a dozen more divisions, including two panzer and four motorized, were also formed along with 22 more reserve divisions. Some of these units came from the absorption of the Austrian Army, which occurred that year. Further expansion occurred in 1939.
Possessing a powerful army gave Hitler options in the expansionist risks he took. Like many Germans, he sought revenge for perceived injustices. For the Führer the scales could only be balanced through war, and a strong military made war feasible, even desirable, as it would prove Germany was again formidable and to be respected. By 1939, the Army had 102 divisions, half of them active. Total strength was around 1.8 million troops. While there were still shortages in certain types of weapons and equipment, the Nazi propaganda machine had done its work, and these shortcomings were not apparent. Foreign observers saw a formidable modern force, and Hitler was happy to let them believe that image.
Prior to the Polish Crisis, Germany had gotten extensive practice in territorial acquisition, though without war. Instead, political maneuvering and bluff achieved Nazi goals up to that point. There was tension; war clouds loomed over Europe for several years before September 1939. However, until then each crisis had been resolved in Germany’s favor, a winning streak that increased confidence within the Reich in its own ability and the moral cowardice of its opponents. Hitler was susceptible to a gambler’s faith in a winning streak, and this was a factor in the Nazi invasion of Poland.
The Saar, 1935: Nazi Aggression Takes its First Steps
The Third Reich’s first success came in the Saar in 1935. This region of Germany was placed under Anglo-French occupation and control in 1920 for a period of 15 years. The Saar was an industrial center and contained coal fields that were given to France. A commission oversaw the territory until 1935, when a plebiscite was held to determine what would happen to the area. The situation was a reminder of German defeat in World War I and another territory stripped from the nation despite the ethnically German citizens in residence.
Jubilant young Austrian citizens cheer the news that their country has been annexed by Nazi Germany and is now a part of the Third Reich. Hitler coerced Austrian leaders into accepting the union, which was completed in March 1938.
Once the Nazis came to power in 1933, large numbers of Germans who opposed their rule moved to the Saar precisely to escape them. Over the next two years, as the plebiscite grew near, these opponents of Hitler’s regime campaigned to have the region remain under French occupation. The Führer had other plans, as regaining the Saar would be a propaganda victory for his government. He directed Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels to conduct a media campaign aimed at swaying the populace to vote for return to the Reich. When the vote came in January 1935, over 90 percent of the voters chose to return to Germany. On March 1 the Saar became German again. With German reoccupation came the arrest of those considered to have collaborated with the French government and Nazi opponents who had fled there previously. Regaining the Saar was a first step for Nazi aggression.
The following year Hitler went further and reoccupied the Rhineland. The demilitarization of the area was stipulated in the Versailles Treaty and made permanent in the Locarno Treaty of 1925, which sought to normalize relations between various European powers. The Rhineland was occupied by Allied troops until 1935 under the terms of the treaty. In actuality these troops were withdrawn by 1930. Over the next five years, as the Nazis came to power and more openly disregarded the Versailles Treaty, German reoccupation of the Rhineland became an expected development, calculated to cause a crisis.
Hitler’s Annexation Gambles in the Rhineland, Austria, and the Sudetenland
In early 1936 Hitler gambled and sent a small force into the demilitarized zone. Hitler knew there was a possibility of war but deemed it minimal; when War Minister Field Marshal Werner Von Blomberg expressed his fears, Hitler told him German troops would be withdrawn if French forces entered the Rhineland. The Reich went ahead with the move on March 7, 1936, sending a handful of infantry battalions into the Rhineland, where they joined local police and prepared for a French counterattack, planning a fighting withdrawal if necessary. When French troops stayed on their side of the border, Hitler’s confidence was bolstered, and he ordered the troops to stay.
Two years later Hitler made more moves that consolidated his nation’s position even further and reinforced his belief in the moral cowardice of the Western powers. In March 1938, Germany annexed Austria, incorporating its military into the Reich. There was a small pro-Nazi movement within Austria that was agitating for integration with Germany. This movement was suppressed by the Austrian government, which believed most Austrians wanted nothing to do with Hitler. On March 9, Austrian Chancellor Kurt Schuschnigg announced a plebiscite to allow voters to state their preference about integration with Germany.
30th September 1938: British prime minister Neville Chamberlain (1869 – 1940) making his ‘peace in our time’ address at Heston Airport on his return from Munich. (Photo by Fox Photos/Getty Images)
The Nazi propaganda machine went into full swing, announcing riots in Austria and unfair rules for the vote to sway the decision against integration. It claimed the uproar was a plea by Austrians for Germany to enter Austria and restore order. On March 12, Wehrmacht troops crossed the border, meeting no opposition. Hitler himself entered Austria that evening. Within days the union of Germany and Austria, known as the Anschluss, was announced. Hitler had once again increased German power without a war.
The second Nazi move of 1938 was the annexation of the Sudetenland. This event, the result of an agreement meant to maintain peace, was a major step toward the conflict to come. After obtaining Austria with such relative ease, Hitler turned his gaze toward the north-northwestern area of Czechoslovakia, a region known as the Sudetenland. Many ethnic Germans lived in this area, making it a good target for expansion. The usual propaganda claims were made, stating the Czech government was abusing ethnic Germans within its borders.
The Czechs prepared for war, but no one else did. Hitler met with representatives of Britain, France, and Italy in Munich during late September. There, he obtained an agreement from those powers to give the Sudetenland to Germany. Without support, Czechoslovakia had little choice but to acquiesce. German troops entered the Sudetenland to the applause of its Germanic populace.
Following the annexation of the Sudetenland, German troops eventually occupied all of neighboring Czechoslovakia. On March 15, 1939, German forces rolled through the streets of the Czech capital of Prague. Some Czech citizens offered the Nazi salute; others were determined to resist.
Supposedly this was Germany’s last territorial demand; returning from Munich, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain made his now infamous statement of having achieved “peace with honour” and “peace in our time.” That peace lasted less than six months; on March 15, 1939, the Wehrmacht marched into the rest of Czechoslovakia. Appeasement had failed, and Hitler had Poland in his sights. With Czech territory in German hands, a Nazi invasion of Poland could proceed from both the west and south, making that nation’s defense more difficult.
Planning the Nazi Invasion of Poland
The Polish Crisis began 10 days after the Nazis took Czechoslovakia. Hitler ordered the Wehrmacht High Command (Oberkommando Der Wehrmacht, OKW) to prepare a military campaign against Poland. He tried obtaining concessions from the Poles regarding Danzig and the Polish Corridor, including threats of military action. The efforts proved futile as the Poles refused to give in. Both sides began aggressive propaganda campaigns, with the Nazis claiming Polish atrocities against Germans in the corridor area.
Given his string of successes, Hitler was willing to gamble on Poland, although the situation in 1939 was worse than in earlier years. Unlike at Munich, there was no agreement with France and Great Britain for a resolution, and previous German actions had destroyed trust in Hitler’s word. The Third Reich’s racist policies and actions were also turning world opinion against it. Other members of Hitler’s civilian and military hierarchy were unwilling to express resistance to his plans. The Nazi leader had decided on another risky gamble, and with his absolute control there was no one to stop him.
With the decision made, a plan had to be created. During April 1939, OKW issued its annual directive to the armed forces. Within it was Fall Weiss (Case White). The plan was introduced with a statement from Hitler himself describing current relations with Poland. It required the German military to be prepared to attack by September 1. The plan stressed surprise. Mobilization would not take place until just before the actual invasion. Only regular Army units would be used at first, since calling up reserves would alert the Poles.
These active units would be secretly moved into assembly areas along the frontier before being ordered into their jumping-off points. The Army could also attack from Czech territory. There were also arrangements for defending the border with France, the Baltic Sea area, and German airspace. All this would effectively isolate Poland from her Western supporters until it was too late.
On April 28, Hitler nullified the German non-aggression treaty with Poland and demanded resolution on the Danzig issue. German operatives were sent into Danzig, where they attacked a customs house and tore down Polish flags. Polish actions against ethnic Germans were given wide press coverage. There was a Nazi faction in Danzig, and it clamored for return to Germany. This was the beginning of a months-long campaign to pave the way for German goals, with or without war.
Diplomatic Machinations and Nazi Propaganda
Over the following months further diplomatic machinations took place. On May 22, a pact was signed with Italian dictator Benito Mussolini, taking pressure off Germany’s southern flank. However, Hitler assured Mussolini there would be no war, and the Italians made no promise of military support. This kept Italy from the Allied camp and threatened France’s and Britain’s Mediterranean holdings. Hitler also received visits from the leaders of Yugoslavia, Hungary, and Bulgaria. These affairs were accompanied by extravagant displays of German military power, with scores of aircraft roaring overhead or hundreds of tanks clanking past.
Fully equipped for aggressive action, German troops, who appear to be fresh and not yet bloodied by fighting, march along a road in Poland. Although German and Soviet troops had completed their seizure of Polish territory in a matter of weeks, the campaign was more costly than some senior commanders had envisioned.
A major victory for the Nazis was the rapprochement with the Soviet Union. The British and French were seeking a tacit alliance with the Soviets as a counterbalance to Germany, but this new development quashed that hope. Russia and Germany secretly negotiated an agreement for respective spheres of influence. The Soviets would have a free hand in Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia along with eastern Poland. In exchange, Germany would regain Danzig, the Polish Corridor, and western Poland.
Openly, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression treaty between the nations. This was a surprise development as the Nazis were staunchly anti-communist. Both Hitler and Stalin still expected eventual war; the Soviets expected conflict as early as 1944. While war would come much sooner with the German invasion on June 22, 1941, in August 1939 the issue seemed settled.
The Polish Crisis came to a head in August. The Germans placed more pressure on Poland over Danzig and the corridor, with civil disturbances taking place. The Poles stood firm, bolstered by assurances of support from France and Britain. On August 12-13, Italian Foreign Minister Count Galeazzo Ciano met with Hitler to discuss a diplomatic solution. Italy did not want its ally going to war; the nation was still recovering from its campaigns in Albania, Ethiopia, and Spain and was not ready to fight the French and British. The Italian military needed time to modernize its forces and did not expect to be ready until 1942. Hitler, confident in his course, would not be swayed. Ciano felt the Germans had breached their agreement, but there was little to be done.
On August 17, the Nazis enacted their scheme to justify invasion. The Wehrmacht supplied Polish Army uniforms to operatives commanded by senior SS officer Reinhard Heydrich to create incidents of Polish attacks on German soil. Hitler addressed his military leaders about the issue on August 22, admitting an incident would be “arranged.” The morality of such an act was irrelevant; only victory mattered. He thought it unlikely the British and French would intervene, and if they did they could not reinforce Poland directly. If war came, Germany would win. Hitler also mentioned the impending treaty with the Soviets, which was signed the next day. The speech ended with a statement of belief that the Wehrmacht could carry out any order successfully.
When the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact became public on August 23, it seemed war was inevitable. Hitler ordered the attack to begin on August 26. The next day the British sent Poland a written guarantee that Britain and France would come to its aid if Germany invaded. When he learned of the move, Hitler rescinded his attack order and engaged in a last-minute move to forestall the involvement of the Western Allies. He promised to respect the current borders with France and to support the British. This offer did not impress either nation, which had no reason to trust such promises. Negotiations were essentially broken off.
Nazi Germany Declares War on Poland
On August 31, Hitler signed the order for the Nazi invasion of Poland, to begin the next morning at 4:45. At 8 pm on the night before the invasion, Germans in Polish uniforms “captured” a German radio station in Silesia. A broadcast in Polish announced an attack on Germany. Soon German police subdued the “attackers.” Casualties were found dressed in Polish uniforms, but they were actually condemned German criminals. Within hours the full might of the Wehrmacht was thrown against the Poles.
German armored forces in PzKpfw. I and PzKpfw. II tanks pause momentarily along a muddy road somewhere in Poland.
When the invasion of Poland came, the Wehrmacht pursued a plan to envelop and destroy the Polish Army west of the Vistula and Narew Rivers. The main blow came from Army Group South under Generaloberst Gerd Von Rundstedt, striking northeast out of Silesia toward Warsaw. A secondary thrust would come from occupied Czechoslovakia to handle Polish troops in Galicia. Generaloberst Fedor von Bock’s Army Group North would strike east through the Polish Corridor to link with East Prussia. That done, Bock would then advance on Warsaw from the north.
Polish plans were for a forward defense in western Poland. This was required; much of the Polish Army was made up of ethnic Poles who lived in the western part of the nation. They would need time to mobilize. A quick defense would hopefully also draw Britain and France into the war sooner. It was an imperfect plan, as it allowed the Poles to be decisively engaged early in the fighting. Polish units would also have to cover more territory than was prudent. Combined with Allied underestimation of Germany’s new army and tactics, it was a recipe for defeat, though in fairness the Poles were in a bad position no matter what plans they enacted.
Despite all the mobilizations and signs, the attack was a tactical surprise for the Poles. The Luftwaffe commenced bombing while the old German battleship Schleswig-Holstein began shelling the Polish fortress at Westerplatte. The Polish Navy was attacked and would be effectively destroyed within a few days. The advancing ground troops swept aside a few Polish patrols and border guards and moved into Poland itself. Paramilitary troops from both sides engaged in a vicious struggle for Danzig.
German armored spearheads raced across Poland, trapping large numbers of Polish troops. Simultaneously, Luftwaffe aircraft destroyed many planes of the Polish Air Force on the ground.
The Polish Corridor was defended by two infantry divisions and a cavalry brigade. The German 4th Army attacked, and the Polish cavalry fought a series of delaying actions, including a raid that resulted in a cavalry charge against a surprised German infantry battalion. They were only beaten off with the arrival of a few armored cars. The next day Italian war correspondents were brought to the scene. They reported being told the Polish cavalrymen had been killed while charging German panzers. The story took hold of the popular imagination until it became an accepted reality, but the tale is just a myth.
As 4th Army hit the Polish Corridor, 3rd Army advanced out of East Prussia toward Warsaw. Two corps attacked but ran into the Mlawa Line, a fortified zone guarding the obvious route of attack. The Germans tried to outflank the position, but swamps secured both flanks, bogging down the effort after several assaults failed. The Polish Mazowiecka Cavalry Brigade met the German 1st Cavalry Brigade along the Ulatkowka River. Engagements between mounted patrols soon led to heavy dismounted combat. By sunset of the first day of the war, 3rd Army was stopped cold.
POLISH ARMY MANOEUVRES NEAR FRONTIER. DANZIG COUP EXPECTED. 18.4.39. Polish army manoeuvres are now being carried out near the German frontier, and cavalry regiments are being called up. – Polish circles in Berlin state that Poland is ready to fire her guns if spontaneous actions occur in Danzig. O.P.S. A long column of Polish tanks during manoeuvres near the frontier. Anm. Nazityskland invaderade Polen 1 september 1939. Manöver Förberedelser Tanks Kolonn På rad Larvfötter CD520 sites: POLEN
Making the main effort, Army Group South saw extensive action, particularly with its 8th and 10th Armies in Silesia. They intended to strike against the Polish Armies Lodz and Krakow, get over the Warta River, and cut off enemy forces in western Poland. Afterward they would advance on Warsaw. These two Wehrmacht formations contained many of the German armored and mechanized divisions.
Initially fighting was light since the Polish defenses were 20 miles behind the border. The worst fighting took place when the 4th Panzer Division attacked the Wolynska Cavalry Brigade at the village of Mokra. The horsemen were assisted by an armored train, while the Germans had trouble coordinating their tanks and infantry. A Stuka raid succeeded in destroying Polish supplies and killing many of their horses, but the cavalrymen held firm. High casualties forced them to finally retreat at sunset, with German tanks hounding them. Meanwhile, Army Krakow suffered badly, its 7th Infantry Division being cut off and overwhelmed by several German divisions. The fortified city of Katowice fared better, however, limiting German success. The rear areas were threatened by guerrilla units of ethnic Germans formed by German intelligence before the war.
Advancing from Slovakia, the 22nd Panzer Corps got around the Polish border units manning the Dunajec Line, forcing Army Krakow to deploy its 10th Mechanized Brigade. The attack was stopped only when the Polish 6th Infantry Division was also committed. Two German mountain divisions attacked across the Carpathian Mountains against Army Karpaty, but the terrain kept them from making any gains.
Heroic Polish cavalrymen ride toward the sounds of battle. Some stories of Polish lancers attacking German tanks emerged after the campaign ended. These remain a topic of debate.
The Luftwaffe tried to destroy the Polish Air Force on the ground, but most of it was already dispersed to auxiliary fields. Despite more myths, only 24 Polish combat aircraft were destroyed on the ground during the entire campaign, though many trainers and unserviceable planes were destroyed. The Luftwaffe also hit railways and important roads in preplanned attacks. Also contrary to legend, the Germans were not yet capable of hasty close air support missions. In the days to come more planned targets were hit, and Polish troop movements were successfully interdicted, hampering the mobilization of reserves. A few close air support missions were attempted late in the campaign.
This photo has been reproduced countless times during the decades since World War II but has lost none of its poignancy. A 10-year-old girl weeps over the body of her older sister, who has just been killed during a German air raid near Warsaw.
A bombing attack on Warsaw took heavy losses to the fighters of the Polish Pursuit Brigade on the first day of the war, but Luftwaffe numerical superiority enabled repeated strikes and by September 6 the Polish unit had lost 70 percent of its fighters, forcing its withdrawal. The rest of the Polish fighter strength was used up in the skies over the main fighting, inflicting at least 126 losses on the Germans. Polish bomber crews flew bravely against the advancing German armies but likewise suffered terribly for little effect.
Back in the north, the Wehrmacht continued advancing along the corridor while Polish forces withdrew southward, leaving the Westerplatte garrison cut off. In the Tuchola Forest, the 3rd Panzer Division managed to cross the Brda River. Two German divisions also advanced west down the corridor from East Prussia, nearly trapping the Polish units between them. Only one Polish division was able to escape the encirclement on September 3. The Germans kept up pressure on the Mlawa Line, finally starting to outflank it. The beleaguered Polish cavalry was reinforced with the 8th Infantry Division but could not hold the line any longer. By the next day the Mlawa defenders and the remaining Poles not encircled in Pomerania were ordered to withdraw to the Vistula Line.
During the night of September 2, the Polish Podlaska Cavalry Brigade conducted a raid into East Prussia, the only Polish attack on German territory. It withdrew after some skirmishes with German militia. The Polish 20th Infantry continued manning the Mlawa Line to allow their comrades to withdraw. It was soon surrounded but continued to resist. Army Modlin tried to hold at the town of the same name, but German river crossing operations threatened the Polish position. After a failed counterattack, the Poles withdrew again across the San River. Another Polish garrison tried to delay the Germans at Modlin but was also surrounded by the advancing Nazis.
German Junkers Ju-87 Stuka dive bombers fly in formation above the Polish countryside. During the blitzkrieg, these planes acted as flying artillery, striking deep behind enemy lines to disrupt supply and communications, inflict casualties on troop concentrations, and spread terror among Polish civilians.
The German army groups now began their encirclement of Army Poznan in western Poland. Army Poznan’s commander, General Tadeusz Kutrzeba, asked to attack the German 8th Army, the northern formation of Army Group South. He was refused permission by Marshal Edward Rydz-Smigly, supreme Polish commander, who feared the unit would be destroyed; he wanted to avoid a decisive battle west of the Vistula. Sadly, the Germans were vulnerable on this flank and feared just such an attack.
The Polish 7th Division, decimated earlier, was mauled again by the 1st Panzer Division and several infantry units as the Germans exploited the gap between the Polish Armies Lodz and Krakow. This fighting enabled the German 10th Army, with its heavy armored contingent, to move toward Warsaw. The tanks struck out across flat farmland through the heart of Poland. The Polish units south of this exploitation withdrew skillfully, delaying the 2nd Panzer Division and maintaining their cohesion.
Polish infantrymen execute field maneuvers during peacetime exercises in April 1939, just five months before World War II erupted in Europe. The Poles fought back on two fronts but were conquered by the Germans from the west and the Soviets from the east.
The panzer divisions made for Warsaw directly toward the Polish Army Prusy, which had been placed there in expectation that the Germans would advance from that direction. Containing three infantry divisions and a cavalry brigade, this army also had a small force of tanks to defend against the panzers bearing down on them. The 1st and 4th Panzer Divisions quickly made for Piotrkow, where they were met by Polish infantry and the 2nd Tank Battalion with its 7TP light tanks. The Polish tankers fought well, knocking out 33 German armored vehicles, but since they were not concentrated their efforts had no lasting effect.
Meanwhile, the German 10th Army pushed back Army Krakow to Kielce by September 5, further opening the path to Warsaw. General Kutrzeba again asked to attack the German flank but was refused. That evening Marshal Rydz-Smigly ordered all four engaged Polish armies—Poznan, Prusy, Lodz and Krakow—to withdraw to the Vistula.
The Germans noticed the Polish moves; Rundstedt and other field commanders realized what was happening and asked to penetrate deeper to encircle the Poles. OKW still worried about a French attack in the west, however, and delayed. It took until September 9, when it was becoming obvious the French were not moving quickly, for the high command to change its mind. Meanwhile, the Poles continued retreating to the Vistula. Rydz-Smigly became worried that the fast-moving Germans would cut off his forces and decided to move his headquarters forward to Brzesc. This location was not able to handle the level of communications needed, and the move proved a major error as the high command could not effectively communicate with units in the field.
The fast-moving German units were easily outdistancing the Polish forces now; time and again Polish troops reached a position only to find German tanks behind them. The gap between Army Prusy and Army Lodz was the worst, with the 1st and 4th Panzer Divisions pushing ever deeper toward Warsaw. Other German forces were moving through the Polish Corridor for another offensive. General Bock was allowed to push his troops down the east bank of the Vistula to endanger the Poles defending along that line.
Captured Polish soldiers are marched toward temporary camps after surrendering to the advancing Germans. Many Polish troops were cut off and forced to capitulate as the German armored spearheads moved rapidly toward their objectives.
With the Germans closing on Warsaw, Marshal Rydz-Smigly finally began to consider the counterattack General Kutrzeba was suggesting, hoping to relieve pressure on Army Lodz and allow the Poles time to reorganize around Warsaw and the Vistula River. The counterattack came along the Bzura River on September 9; the Germans were still aware of the vulnerability of their flank but were lulled by bad intelligence reports and the lack of Polish movement up to this point. Three Polish infantry divisions (14th, 17th, and 25th) attacked the German 24th and 30th Infantry Divisions. A pair of Polish cavalry brigades guarded the flanks of the advance. The initial fighting was heavy, but the Poles threw in their reserves supported by armor and turned the tide. Both German divisions fell back; the 30th lost more than 1,500 as prisoners by September 10. The Poles were finally striking back.
Rundstedt remained calm and ordered the 1st and 4th Panzer Divisions to turn west from the outskirts of Warsaw and begin encircling Army Poznan. He hoped to cut off and destroy this large concentration of enemy troops. Other units were also rushed to the area, establishing numerical superiority. Within two days the Polish offensive was done, and Kutrzeba was ordered to break through to the south toward the Romanian border. However, his command was now badly outnumbered, nine Polish divisions with two cavalry brigades against 19 German divisions, of which five were armored or mechanized.
Kutrzeba understood his predicament and instead moved eastward. The Germans attacked, but the fighting proved difficult until air support arrived. On September 16, some 820 Luftwaffe planes attacked along with the 16th Panzer Corps on the ground. By that evening Kutrzeba ordered his troops to try and escape the pocket through a gap at Sochaczew. Elements of two divisions and two cavalry brigades made it out, but 120,000 Poles were taken prisoner when the Bzura Pocket capitulated on September 18. Both Army Poznan and Army Pomorze were destroyed. Their sacrifice had delayed the German advance on Warsaw and allowed their comrades to prepare better defenses, but the price was staggering.
The Polish command was operating in confusion as stragglers and partially mobilized units began arriving, not knowing where to go. The Polish leadership within Warsaw decided to make a stand and defend the city. Since Rundstedt’s Army Group South was still fighting at Bzura, Army Group North attacked the city on September 15. It was led by the German 3rd Army, which had troops on both banks of the Vistula. The Germans entered the suburbs of the city and engaged in heavy fighting, but since Warsaw was not yet surrounded some Polish troops were still filtering in. After September 21, the Germans finished mopping up the Bzura Pocket and redistributed divisions to surround Warsaw. Army Group South spread out along the south and west sides of the city.
German and Soviet troops met near the city of Brest-Litovsk and celebrated their successful military victory in Poland. Hitler and Soviet Premier Josef Stalin had secretly agreed to partition Poland once their conquest was complete.
The Soviet Union Moves in, Sealing Poland’s Fate
On September 17, Polish fortunes reached a new low when the Soviet Union moved into Poland with 41 divisions and 12 tank brigades totaling over 466,000 troops. Some Poles expected the Soviets might be coming to assist them, but those hopes were quickly dashed. Most of the Polish Army was fighting to the west, leaving only token border troops on the eastern frontier. On average, there was one Polish battalion against a Soviet corps. There was some fighting, mostly skirmishing, but all real hope was now lost. Marshal Rydz-Smigly ordered all Polish units to make for the Romanian border.
On September 23, the Germans began their first attempt to take Warsaw, supported by 1,000 field guns, but few gains were made. The Poles were resisting fiercely. On September 25, another attack came with both artillery and air bombardment. Known as “Black Monday,” the city was pelted with bombs and shells. Even German Junkers Ju-52 transport planes were pressed into service, dropping many incendiary bombs. There was so much smoke that target identification was almost impossible, and many Luftwaffe aircraft dropped their payloads on German troops.
The Nazi campaign to eradicate European Jewry continued as German forces occupied Poland. The day after Poland surrendered, SS personnel were engaged in rounding up Polish Jews and other undesirable elements of the population for resettlement or execution.
The next day the Germans seized three old forts on the south side of Warsaw. To increase the suffering within the city and hopefully speed the surrender, Hitler ordered that no civilians were allowed to leave, trapping them inside the shattered capital. During the evening of September 26, Army Warsaw’s commander, General Juliusz Rommel, sent word to the Germans that he was prepared to discuss surrender. The fighting ended the next day, and more than 140,000 Polish troops became prisoners. A separate Polish force at Modlin held out for another two days, and then it too gave up, 24,000 soldiers marching into captivity.
A small Polish force, east of Warsaw and out of communication, was unaware of the city’s surrender and tried to get there to join the fighting. It ran into the German 13th Infantry Division, a motorized unit, and fought until October 6. Since by this point the Soviets had invaded eastern Poland, there was no longer anywhere for Polish troops to go, and the campaign was effectively over.
Hitler’s great gamble for a Nazi invasion of Poland had succeeded at the cost of 48,000 casualties and a nation now at war. Further gambles would bring France, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, and Norway under his control by the end of 1940. It would be to the east, on the vast unending plains of the Soviet Union, where the gambles would begin to fail, leading to the ruin of the Reich Hitler had claimed would last a millennium.
And now for a review…
So now you know about how Hitler’s Germany started World War II, and how the Poles were not ready for the event. Even though they knew of the non-stop anti-Polish propaganda, they erroneously believe that they were stronger, better equipped and ready to handle anything that Hitler might unleash.
Expert tip
Do not ever fall for the belief that you are “better” than someone else, or some other society. This belief has failed time and time again. Just ask all those dead leaders of all those cities that Genghis Khan vanquished. Just ask the Spartans. Just ask the Athenians. Just ask the American Indians.
They thought that, at worst, they would be fighting Germany alone. Not a betrayal of Russia, and the slicing up of their nation within a month.
And the people paid the price.
When one nation conquers your nation bad things will happen.
As in what happened to all the intelligent, trained, educated, and influential people in Poland, once the nation is conquered, it will be the people who will suffer. For once stripped of their ability to fight, and organization, the threat-vectors will be identified, collected, and killed in mass.
1940 Katyn Forest Massacre
The Russian eagerness to slaughter Poland's military leadership was not simply born out of savagery. Many believe that Stalin reckoned that such ruthless tactics would permanently weaken the Poles, and make them a much easier people to subdue. -Dailymail
Know your history. It is going to be repeated. It is going to happen in the United States. It is going to happen.
Do not let it happen to you.
The
progressive liberal communists collected anyone who could possibly be a
threat to them. They loaded them into trucks and trains, and carted
them off to an isolated forest. There, they tied their hands behind
their backs and systematically killed each one.
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So let’s talk about what happened to the conquered people after the war ended. Let’s talk a little about the people in Poland…
In 1939, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland. They came
from both sides, and within weeks, Poland was captured. The Western half
of Poland became occupied by Germany. The Eastern side of Poland became
occupied by the Soviets.
Once
the Germans and the Soviets took over Poland, it was divided up. The
Poles in the West had to deal with the German Nazi’s. The Poles on the
East had to deal with the Soviets.
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In 1940, once Russia took over a huge portion of Poland, they collected people. They collected anyone who was smart. They collected anyone who had skills. They collected anyone who had an education. They considered these people threats to the “new progressive reality” that they planned to impose on Poland. They collected them.
And, then they massacred them.
Anyone with a college education.
Anyone who was an educator.
Anyone in politics.
Anyone who owned or supervised in a factory.
Anyone who was related to anyone who was famous.
Anyone who held an officer rank in the military.
Anyone who was a small business owner.
Anyone who was a land owner (owned a house).
Anyone who was singled out by someone else as non-progressive.
Expert tip
When your nation is conquered and vanquished, your chances of survival drop considerably. In order to survive you need to stop listening to all “authorities”. No one has your best interests at heart.
In November 1939, the Russians arrested over 15,000 Polish officers and deported them to western Russia.
Among them were civilians, professors, doctors, lawyers, journalists, artists, judges,an Olympic athlete, priests, and the Chief Rabbi of the Polish Army.
The prisoners sat there for months, afraid of what was going to happen, but few guessing their true fate. As Peszkowski said: ‘We did not think it possible that the Russians would kill us without mercy.’
Desc: Katyn massacre (Polish army officers killed by Soviet troops in Katyn forest, near Smolensk, western Russia,1943), Nazi propaganda poster, Central Europe • Credit: [ The Art Archive / Private Collection / Marc Charmet ] • Ref: AA399882
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The military leaders were sent to three prison camps, at Kozielsk, Starobielsk, and Ostashkov.
In April of the following year, the Polish prisoners were told that they would be repatriated to Poland. It was a lie, of course. When progressive liberal democrats (whether they call themselves Marxists or Communists is of not matter) say anything, it is ALWAYS a lie.
Progressive Liberal Socialists always lie.
Multiple
locations were used to kill all of the intellectual class of Poland.
The workers, ignorant, and women were singled out, and segregated. The
men were taken to remote locations and shot.
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The first group boarded a train, but oddly it was not traveling east, but rather westward. It came to a stop outside Katyn Forest, situated near Smolensk.
Executions normally take place hurriedly, but in this case the killers were in no rush.
The victims were taken from their prison camp and put on a train for two days without food and water. When they arrived at their final destination, they were bundled onto coaches with windows smeared with cement to obscure their view. After a short drive, the men were directed one by one to the rear door of the vehicle. As each man stepped into the gloomy light of the Russian forest, he would have had no doubt as to his fate.
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From there the Polish officers were herded into black vans which drove them to a clearing in the woods.
When they stepped out, they were simply led to the edge of what would imminently be their grave. The Russians took them to a large pit inside the forest, and forced them to kneel at its edge.
Led to the edge of the pit. Held and bound, then forced to your knees. The progressive liberal socialists will put the pistol to the back of your head and kill you dead with it.
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Their hands were tied behind their backs, and a choke knot tied around their neck and hands so that if they struggled they would have strangled themselves.
Held on either side, the victims were approached from behind by an NKVD man equipped with a German Walther 7.65mm pistol.
The relatively small recoil, compared to that of heavier Russian pistols, made the task far easier on the executioner’s wrist, an essential requisite for a killer with so many men to dispatch.
The shot
was fired at the base of the man’s skull, and if the job was done
correctly, the bullet would have exited through the forehead. Death was
instantaneous, as one by one the Polish officers filled the mass grave.
They were surrounded by dozens of armed NKVD agents who made sure that everyone was killed. No one escaped.
Polish officer shot in the back of the head by progressive liberal socialists from the Soviet Union. These people are dangerous.
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Their bodies were thrown into mass graves.
This convoy of death went on for several weeks. By mid-May almost 4,500 Polish officers were murdered and buried in eight mass graves – the largest grave contained 12 layers of corpses.
Polish aviator shot in the back of the head. This is what the progressive liberal socialists have in store for anyone that does not agree with them on any of their crazed ideology.
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Among the dead were more than 200 pilots including friends and classmates of the Kosciuszko Air Squadron.
Is is a photo of a memorial ceremony in Poland for the absolute slaughter of the Polish leadership, intellectuals, and workers of Poland, by progressive liberal socialist democrats from the Soviet Union. They called themselves “Communists”.
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One of its’ victims was the brother-in-law of Witold Lokociewski. The sole survivor of Katyn was Professor Stanislaw Swianiewicz.
He was on board the train headed to Katyn Forest, and was standing in the line ready to board the van, but an NKVD colonel had pulled him out of the line.
The Germans invaded Russia in July 1942, but it wasn’t until the next spring that they discovered the mass graves in Katyn.
The bodies were exhumed and examined by a team of experts, and they accused the Russians of having committed the atrocity. The Russians denied all responsibility and countered by saying that the Germans had committed the massacre.
Nazi Germans said the Communist Russians did it.
Communist Russians said that the Nazi Germans did it.
But, you know, they both were complicit. As both nations invaded Poland, both nations captured the people, and both nations took over Poland. Who pulled the actual trigger is meaningless. They died because both Russia and Germany promoted the idea of war against Poland.
Fact.
When Polish Prime Minister Sikorski called for an investigation by the International Red Cross, the Russian government abruptly severed all diplomatic ties with Poland. Sir Owen O’Malley, the British Ambassador to the Polish government-in-exile, described the grisly scene:
” In the broad deep pit their comrades lay, packed closely around the edge, head to feet, like sardines in a tin….up and down on the bodies the executioners tramped, hauling [the corpses] about and treading in the blood like butchers in a stockyard. “
Sir Owen O’Malley conducted an investigation and produced a detailed report that proved that the Soviets were guilty. But Churchill hastily absconded with the report and warned everyone not to ever speak a word about it.
They rounded them up. They loaded them into trucks. They tied their hands behind their backs, and they killed them.
-Katyn Massacre
They politely told them to turn around. They asked them to put their hands behind their backs. Then they shot them FUCKING dead.
Dead.
Dead as a fish. Dead. D-E-A-D.
The
progressive liberal communists rounded up anyone who could possibly be a
threat to them. They loaded them into trucks. They tied their hands
behind their backs, and they killed them.
.
When the atrocity was reported, the governments all, ordered it to be kept quiet and for no one to say a word about it.
Know your history.
You see, the progressive liberals; the communists wanted a complete extinction of all opposition in Poland. They destroyed anyone with knowledge. They eviscerated anyone with skills, ability or talent. They erased anyone who could organize against them.
You know…
People like YOU.
In the spring of 1940, Stalin and Lavrenty Beria planned to liquidate this potential source of opposition to Soviet control and gave orders to murder over 20,000 Polish officers.
The murders were carried out at several sites. The most famous was the NKVD burial ground at Katyn, near Minsk (today in Belarus), but killings were also carried out at Piatikhatki (near Kharkiv in Ukraine) and at Mednoye in Russia.
Other killing sites were never identified, although it is believed that another group of officers was placed on old barges towed out into the White Sea near the Arctic Circle and used for target practice by the Soviet Navy.
Those who died at Katyn included an admiral, two generals, 24 colonels, 79 lieutenant colonels, 258 majors, 654 captains, 17 naval captains, 3,420 NCOs, seven chaplains, three landowners, a prince, 43 officials, 85 privates, and 131 refugees.
One female air force officer was among the dead. Also among the dead were 20 university professors; 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists as well as about 200 pilots.
-Learning History
We know about this because, while Stalin ordered everyone to be
killed, their bodies were discovered by the Nazi’s that invaded Russia
the subsequent year. They heard about the bodies and they investigated.
Expert tip
Do not board any trains, trucks, buses, or transport vehicles with others that appear to be leaving in a massive group. Do not believe the excuses that they give you, or what the destination will ultimately be. It is all a lie to trick you to go to a very bad place, and stay there.
They used the information and pictures of what they found as anti-Soviet propaganda.
The remains of Brigadier General Smorawinski ( Mieczysław Smorawiński
) found in one of the many graves in the Katyn forest. He had his hands
tied behind his back and shot in the back of the head. After a short
stay in various Soviet prisons and POW camps, at the end of 1939 he was
transferred to the NKVD Special Camp in Kozelsk. Smorawiński left the
camp on 7 April 1940. Together with most of the Polish officers
imprisoned there he was executed by the NKVD at Katyn, in the spring of
1940, aged forty-six, in what became known as the Katyn massacre.
During the exhumation of 1943 his body was exhumed and identified, as
one of the Polish generals to be identified. Katyn
Memorial in Jersey City. The progressive liberal democrats in power
want it removed, or put in an isolated area so that “mothers don’t have
to explain what happened in history”.
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There are memorials to this horrible massacre in the United States. Though the local politicians in power wants the statues to be removed.
In Jersey City, a park official proposed relocating a monument of the massacre to a less-traveled locale. He argued this because he found it “a little gruesome”, adding that “I can’t imagine how many mothers go by and have to explain it to their children.”
This happened in Katyn, but also in Cambodia. As well as in China. It also happened in Cuba, North Korea, and Vietnam. Know your history. All of the ground-work is being laid down today for a near by future.
The
Cambodian Killing Fields are a number of sites in Cambodia where
collectively more than a million people were killed and buried by the
Khmer Rouge regime, during its rule of the country from 1975 to 1979,
immediately after the end of the Cambodian Civil War. The mass killings
are widely regarded as part of a broad state-sponsored genocide.
Analysis of 20,000 mass grave sites by the DC-Cam Mapping Program and
Yale University indicate at least 1,386,734 victims of execution.
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There will not be any leniency in this matter. If you are a threat, maybe you wrote something, or maybe you said an off-hand comment at work, you will be singled out. The “Diversity Officers” in your company have a firm lock-grip on who is not “with the program”. Take heed.
You will be taken to the edge of a dug hole in the ground and you will be shot dead.
Dead.
Please kindly be advised that all of this will happen before you are aware that the SHTF.
You will wake up in the morning and dress like normal. You will drive in your car like normal, and get a coffee at a fast food restaurant like normal. The only thing out of the normal might be a friendly police officer that might pull you aside to "have a small chat with you".
Then, it is all downhill from there.
We see pictures in history books and say, “nah that could never happen here”. The roads are dirt. The people are wearing military clothing. There isn’t anything that looks like a part of America in the pictures.
But the truth is that yes it can happen here, and if you read ANYTHING at all about genocide, know the [1] it is always government sponsored, and [2] it is rare for a nation to escape a period of genocide longer than 100 year period between genocidal events. [3] It is always preceded by disarming of the citizenry.
America is long overdue for one.
Then you will turn around nicely while they put handcuffs on you. You will be entrapped long before you have any idea that things are going down. IT WILL NOT BE REPORTED, and you will be unaware.
Do you think that all those people killed in Katyn had any idea what awaited them? Do you think that those factory workers in Serbia had any idea how their day would end? Do you think that those teachers in Cambodia had any idea what would happen when they "worked the fields".
Be ready to be SURPRISED.
If you are handcuffed, you will stand there while they go through your house.
Betrayal is as old as man, but the pace and severity seems to be accelerating. It hasn’t touched you or me yet, but someday soon we will be told to “be patient, as we restore your account balance,” or “the FBI will not allow this to happen again,” or “we’ve made some mistakes in the past but we (the same people) will do better going forward.” Ya, thanks.
- Karl Ushanka
Yes, war is ugly.
Yes it is, but the reason why I am carrying on about it is really simple. Washington DC is under the impression that they can conduct another “war” and it will be one where the American Military wages war over decades, from distant areas of safety to hurt people who DO NOT FIGHT BACK.
Nope.
Those days are over.
Every time you read or hear, or watch someone talking about Taiwan, the South China Sea, the Uighur Muslims, the Ukraine, or Russian spying realize that you are being prepped for agreeing to World War III.
Remember also that wars NEVER go as planned, and the idea that a war with a major nuclear armed nation will be limited to conventional small arms on distant shores is a big fucking lie.
And shame on you for believing it.
The truth is that you are being set up for a war; a BIG NUCLEAR WAR.
Expert tip
Every article about Taiwan, the Uighur Muslims, Hong Kong pro-democracy movement, the Ukraine, or any contrary article about Russia or China are all propaganda setting you all up to agree to massive nuclear conflagration. Do not fall for it. As the intensity of these article increase, so does the changes of your death. Take note on what the “talking heads” and political commentators are saying. If they are devoting significant time to either of the other two global powers, then “head for the hills”.
A nuclear nightmare.
There is a very strong likelihood that this anti-Russia or Anti-China propaganda campaign will result in large-scale nuclear weapon detonations on American soil.
Yes.
You read that correctly.
There is a strong likelihood that large-scale nuclear weapon(s) will be detonated on American soil within the next few years.
There are numerous reasons why I hold this belief. But the biggest, I suppose, is the pro-war faction in the United States government.
You see, the United States now believes that we should improve our nuclear warfare fighting capability so that we can use it.
After all, with all those proxy wars the United States is fighting now, (eight in total as of 2019) that we should be able to field and use nuclear weapons freely without worry of retaliation. (After all, what’s all this nonsense about going to battle against Turkey and “our allies” the Kurds?)
John Bolton, openly advocates a first-strike policy against nuclear-armed enemies, and the Pentagon, after decades of careful disarmament, wants to spend $1.2 trillion to upgrade its nuclear arsenal.
If you’ve felt a new shiver of nuclear fear over the past year, you’re not alone: The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists has moved its “Doomsday Clock” to within two minutes of midnight — closer than it has been since the height of the Cold War.
- This Is What a Nuclear Bomb Looks Like
You see, according to the military and political planned deep within the bowels of Washington, America can use “low yield” tactical nuclear weapons on a sovereign foreign nation, and aside from some “political squawk”, nothing bad will come of it.
No one ever fights back. Right?
In December 2016, the US Defense Science Board – a semi-independent group that advises the Secretary of Defense – warned that “the nuclear threshold may be decreasing owing to the stated doctrines and weapons developments of some states.”
Therefore, the DSB recommended DOD should “provide many more options in stemming proliferation or escalation; and a more flexible nuclear enterprise that could produce, if needed, a rapid, tailored nuclear option for limited use should existing non-nuclear or nuclear options prove insufficient.” This would involve “lower yield, primary only options” for strategic warheads on long-range ballistic missiles.
- The Terrifying Nuclear War Game the US Shouldn't Play
Now along with this attitude, is the strong belief that if America fields “low yield” nuclear devices that it will NOT result in devastating nuclear retaliatory strikes. That is considered inconceivable, as “everyone knows” that the United States is the strongest and most powerful nation in the world.
There wouldn’t ever be any repercussions.
It’s inconceivable.
America still thinks that it is the only dog in the barn-yard. But, you know, the rest of the farm animals are getting mightily tired of the dog bullying everyone around. Especially as the dog is getting old, has arthritis, and other problems. One day, another animal might just say that enough is enough.
America spent millions of dollars on NED, which actively went into China, into Hong Kong, on Chinese soil. They taught and trained the anti-government forces there. They taught them how to perform "soft violence" to provoke the mainland Chinese. They paid protestors, and gave them the skills to build bombs, and target maps and a strategy.
All of which was caught on video. With Trumps advisors caught on film (with a clear audio track) in the HK Marriot hotel explaining how to conduct the riots and how to destroy the subway stations. The Chinese have videos of the teaching and training classes for the insurgents, and the NED even has the gall to have their members on LinkedIN boasting about their involvement in HK.
China did nothing.
Though, if the roles were reversed, it would be a different story. If China sent advisors to train the BLM and Antifa on how to bomb bus stations, trains, airports and destroy all public transportation. And they were caught on film and broadcast on all the Conservative networks, with Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity talking about it 24-7. It would be a catastrophic error in judgement. Don't you agree?
But China did nothing.
So America believes that it can go about launching all sorts of military, quasi and semi-para military operations all over the globe and no one will ever raise a finger to stop the empire expansionism.
(Limited Yield) Snow ball strike from the movie “A Christmas Story”.
It can be Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Afghanistan, the Ukraine. It can be anywhere from Venezuela to Turkey. No one will or can stop us. Right?
China will do nothing. Right?
Russia will do nothing. Right?
No one will fight back. Russia and China won’t ever work together against the USA. Right?
Right?
Ralph fights back against the schoolyard bully. The scene is from the 1980’s movie “A Christmas Story”.
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The belief is that the US can launch a few “low yield” nuclear weapons and no nation would dare strike back. The USA can deploy Marines in Hong Kong or Taiwan, and China won’t do anything.
It’s inconceivable. Don’t you know.
I am not the only person that believes this. Read John Paul Roberts excellent article on the pre-nuclear holocaust preparations that America is currently engaged in.
Are You Ready To Die?
And since it would be inconceivable, the military and the United States government officials are today, far more likely and prone to using “safe”, “tactical” nuclear weapons to further their agendas.
And these are dangerous agendas.
These are agendas that are BLIND to the idea that the rest of the world might put it’s collective foot down and say “ENOUGH!”. And launch a retaliatory strike in full force, not only against the military forces on their territory, but rather at the American homeland, the American cities, and the American people who allowed these morons to get anywhere near nuclear launch codes.
This map should scare the living Dejesus out of you. It shows how Washington DC and the political establishment views the use of low-yield nuclear weapons against Asia in the assumption that no one would strike back.
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I argue that if the United States, for what ever reason, launches and detonates any kind of nuclear weapon (low-yield, small backpack, tactical strike, or strategic nuclear), that there will be a FULL SCALE retaliatory response aimed at the United States.
Any use of nuclear weapons anywhere in Asia will result in the complete destruction of the United States.
And when American military planners contemplate the use of nuclear weapons it is along the lines of tailored tactical responses for set specific objectives. It’s always with “surgical” precision and “contained” destruction. Never taking into account the strong possibility of “unleashing the dogs of war” against us.
They never take into account that the rest of the world thinks of America as a big loud-mouth bully that one day will get it's comeuppance.
Here we consider a “slap back” response up to an all-out MAD-level (Mutually Assured Destruction) response to the United States.
Expert tip
Any use of American “surgical” nuclear weapons anywhere in Asia will result in the complete destruction of the United States.
It assumes that we initiate the actions though our military use of “low yield” nuclear weapons in Asia. As such, we look at a large super-power unleashing modern large-capacity nuclear munitions, using hyper-glide technology against an unsuspecting America.
Though, at that, many basement computer nerds think that a nuclear war is winnable and not all that bad...
"Anukeisabigbomb, butnotthatbig. Mostof DC wouldsurvive, alotofradiationpoisoningthough, andasyoucanseefromtheoccasionalfloorshot, mostofourcongressisoutofthebuildingatleastandmostofthetime... "
We consider them releasing this onslaught within minutes after the USA detonates a”low yield” device in Asia. Which means, that nuclear detonations over coastal cities by SLBM MIRVs will detonate within minutes of launch.
Minutes.
Two minutes after the SLBM launches off the USA coast, the red lights will light up at NORAD and they will scramble to contact the American leadership. Five minutes later Washington will be erased from the surface of the globe.
Thus obliterating the leadership of America in one fell swoop.
These scenarios assume that the leadership in both Russia and China are not idiots. That they have anticipated the use by America of a tactical "low yield" nuclear weapon, and have positioned submarines and other systems for an immediate kill-level response that would detonate on American soil within minutes.
Perhaps, you the reader disagree. Maybe you think that the rest of the world are idiots, and only Americans are smart. Good for you. Then.
A quick reminder.
While the United States has been very busy funding conventional military operations around the globe, strategic nuclear missile forces have taken a back seat to the realities of global proxy wars without nuclear strike-back.
Once a missile launch is detected, I am comfortable knowing that it will be detected via satellite and the knowledge relayed to SAC HQ. That is…
…unless the Chinese and the Russian hunter-killer satellites don’t take them out.
Missile Combat Crew Commander, Capt. Kenny Gibaldo, (left) and 2nd Lt. John Butler, Deputy Crew Commander of the 320th Missile Squadron, simulate the launch of a Minuteman III using the REACT console in a Launch Control Capsule at Missile Alert Facility Hotel-1.
People!
People!
Five minutes is not enough time to react to nuclear destruction. Whether or not the United States strategic forces are aware of a launch means nothing when hyper-speed technology and delivery weapons are used.
Fundamentals
According to the “Fourth Turning”, we can expect a major critical event to take place sometime from 2023 to 2025. This critical event historically involves mass deaths, the destruction of cities using the most advanced weapons of the time, and a complete over-haul of society.
As shown in the following illustration…
Here are the next few years before the Fourth Turning is expected to reach a crisis point.
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I am betting on 2023, but it can be any time from 2023 to 2027.
And you all might ask why. And to this I just look at the cycles of turning; the “Fourth Turning” cycles. Which pretty much seems to be repeating the same old bullshit that led to World War II, and the American Civil War.
Expert tip
John Titor claimed to be a time traveler. He discussed the “future” of America in 1998. All of his predictions came true, the only thing is that his dates were off by ten years. If you follow the events that hey laid out, and add ten years, you will see a contemporaneous civil war brewing in unreported balkanized areas where it is rural vs urban Americans. That the rich oligarchy is pulling the strings and making events happen, and that military overtures towards Russia will be significant and will result in Russia launching a devastating preemptive nuclear strike… not a retaliatory one against the United States.
Can things get worse? Oh, you betya. If you think that 2021 was shit, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Things are sizing up for a really bad event…
Thieves Loot Russia’s Top Secret Doomsday Plane… That’s pretty bad, when someone (probably CIA) breaks into the Russian “Command Post” aircraft and takes off with their valuable cypher equipment. Why? It is only used when there is World War III? It is serious business; Kremlin Sounds Alarm…
Well, maybe you, I and the rest of the sheeple are not told what is going on, but the rest of the world’s leadership isn’t so ill-informed. Russia is most certainly taking all this seriously. Moscow conducts drills of nuke forces…
And of course, Asia is uniting against the out-of-control American military empire…
Do you remember earlier in this article how Germany and Russia teamed up together to destroy Poland? Do be so sure that Russia and China haven’t had enough of the USA bullshit.
But not to worry, America has something called “diversity” and “democracy” and that no matter what happens, American troops will save us…
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Not just that, but the nature of the American military is changing. It is getting rid of “basic training” and focusing on a softer and gentler military. Not one that responds to a harsh crisis, but one ready to handle the advanced high technology systems that the military uses within a fine well ordered environment. They are readying the military to become office and cubicle workers, able to push buttons, and rapidly respond to blinking lights on computer consoles.
I know that President Biden will have a different style that President Trump had, and a totally different mind-set. But that will only result in rearranging the passenger seats on the train, NOT the direction that the train is going in.
America Today
How do you think people in Russia would act? What about people in China? I’ll tell you one thing, they wouldn’t be running into their cars in fear. That’s for certain. They would probably chase after them and kill it with their bar hands.
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The United States leadership has an over-inflated perception of who they are and what capabilities that they possess.
I am not saying that Global Nuclear War is going to happen, but what I am saying is that the leadership in the rest of the world are being threatened by the United States and are teaming up together to prevent the USA from destroying the rest of the world.
The Russian – China alliance is a very formidable block that Americans are unaware of.
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This is not a popular opinion. But it is the reality. And showing people the reality, and that is the true and actual reality is often quite shocking to cattle that have been feeding from the trough for too long.
People!
You don’t fuck around with Russia!
It’s tough to grow up in Russia.
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And of course, you all should well realize, by now at least, that you don’t fuck with China either.
John Titor
Believe him or not, if you add ten years on to his dates then EVERYTHING that he predicted would happen, actually happened. Keep note that he made these predictions back in 1998. And according to him…
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And knowing that he said…
Part 2 – 3:10 Question: “Why do you think that our future will be like your future?” Answer: “Because our world-lines are so similar.”
Part 2 – 3:43 “This world-line and my own are almost exactly alike.”
He talked about what his “past” in his world-line had to say…
Part 2 – 17:40 Most people blamed the “government organizations” for the war. Fast forward to 2017, where one the largest obstacles to meaningful change is the entrenched federal bureaucracy. Curious that John Titor would say “government organizations” and not “the government”. He actually predicted this problem.
Part 2 – 20:50 “When the civil war broke out most decided to stay in the cities and lose most of their civil rights in the guise of security…”
And…
Part 2 – 21:20 “avoiding conflict with the federal police” (The Department of Homeland Security the DHS = the “federal Police”. Which was established by George Bush after 9-11. John Titor PREDICTED the Department of Homeland Security.)
Part 2 – 22:30 “The US cities were attacked by Russia who was our enemy.” In other words, the cities had become the de facto home of the enemies of the United States, and Russia attacked them.
With…
Part 2 – 47:00 Hawaii will probably avoid much of the conflict, but it is dependent on the mainland for food. Therefore, there would be strife on any small island. Interesting that he should make this statement. Most people, by far, would assume that an island would be the best place to “ride out” world war III. But John Titor says differently. He says that the number one cause of death was starvation, and since most food to the island is imported, it would seem that it would not be a desirable location to hide.
With significant notes that say…
Part 3 – 3:14 “There is a civil war in the United States that starts in 2005.”
Part 3 – 3:30 “A nuclear war against the federal empire and the cities occurred in 2015, and thus we (in the countryside) won.”
Here, John Titor discusses “taking out the cities” by Russia and nuclear weapons. Which is what is currently being discussed in contemporaneous American Conservative media…
RUSH: So during the obscene profit time-out mere moments ago, Mr. Snerdley, the Official Program Observer, peppered me with a question. The question was… what exactly was the question? Are we ever gonna win the — (interruption) Are you talking about win elections or just… (interruption) Okay. All right. Mr. Snerdley is asking if we’re ever going to be able to win. And he’s talking about elections. Votes.
Are we ever gonna be able to win without taking back some of these cities? He’s talking about blue cities like New York, Philadelphia. I assume you mean Detroit? (interruption) Do you include Milwaukee in this? (Interruption) Definitely. All right. What about Oakland, California? (interruption) Too far gone. San Francisco? (interruption) You think we can get San Francisco? Look, we won election after election after election without winning these cities or the states they’re in. (interruption)
I thought you were asking me something else when you said, “Can we win?” I thought you meant can we win the culture, can we dominate the culture. I actually think — and I’ve referenced this, I’ve alluded to this a couple of times cause I’ve seen others allude to this. I actually think that we’re trending toward secession. I see more and more people asking what in the world do we have in common with the people who live in, say, New York? What is there that makes us believe that there is enough of us there to even have a chance at winning New York, especially if you’re talking about votes.
-Rush Limbaugh
Adding ten years, we get…
Civil War that starts during the Obama Presidency in 2015.
Nuclear War with Russia that starts in 2025; the Biden Presidency.
Additionally he said this about Florida…
Part 3 – 9:00 Jacksonville, Florida was vaporized by a nuclear weapon. He worked out of a military base in Tampa. That assumes that Tampa must not have been hit by a nuclear strike.
Very curious. If these “minor” facilities were attacked, then you can guarantee that all the other larger bases were obliterated.
Military bases in Florida.
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He said this about Nebraska…
Part 2 – 7:30 He tells his parents in the 2000 world-line to move to Omaha Nebraska because that is where the new capital will be, and it is a safe rural farming community.
And he said this about Canada…
Part 2 – 40:10 Canada is full of very dangerous and ruthless people.
And his opinion about us at this point in time…
Part 3 – 11:45 Imagine that you are a Jew and could travel back in time to Germany at the time of the rise of Hitler in the early 1930’s. You know what the future would be. Yet, you see all around you, the ignorant masses of people who continue their behaviors in complete ignorance in what it will eventually lead towards.
Part 3 – 13:25 Question: Which parts of the United States are safe from the conflict of Civil war, and Nuclear war? Answer: Take a close look at the county by county voting maps of the last election.
Part 3 - 16:15 “Russia’s enemy is not you the people. Russia’s enemy is the United States government.”
Part 3 – 16:45 Statements hint at the deterioration of the Middle East as a negative influence on global stability.
American global relationships.
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And if you add ten years to every date that John Titor gave, this statement should bring “goose bump pimples” to your arms…
Part 3 – 24:54 “The year 2008 was a general time when everyone realized that the world they thought they lived in was over.”
2018.
Part 3 – 34:13 When the war comes it will be blatantly obvious to everyone in the nation that it will occur. The shocking thing was that so many people decided to stay in the very cities where they knew the bombs would be dropped.
Part 3 – 37:30 The president at the time of the Civil War tried to be another Lincoln and hold the country together, but many of the government policies drove a wedge in the civil rights of Americans and created divisions that were irreconcilable. The President in 2009 was concerned ONLY in keeping his power base. (Stated with eerily accuracy in 2000.)
Part 3 – 38:10 One of the things that John Titor alluded to was that the United States president elected in 2008 might be a man or a woman. Yet, back in the year 2000 it was inconceivable that a woman would even consider running for President. Yet, we know now that Hillary Clinton did do exactly that and ran for President in 2008. It seems strange today, after the Hollywood blitz of Madam President Movies all in support of a Hillary Clinton Presidency. But at that time it was unknown.
And this most accurate description…
Part 3 – 9:45 “Let me let you in on a little secret. No one likes you in the future. This time period is looked upon as a lazy, self-centered, civilly ignorant sheep.”
Americans in COVID-19 isolation pens, 2020.
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And about the American Civil War as a buildup toward the total destruction of America by nuclear weapons…
Part 3 – 47:15 Most people will starve, the rest will die of disease, followed by bullet wounds and radiation. In that order.
Part 3 – 52:48 “The conflict was not about taking and holding ground, it was about order and rights… …they were betting that people wanted security over freedom and they were wrong.”
Part 3 – 54:38 “The cities were not isolated because of them, they were isolated because of us (the people in the “red states” or countryside.)”
The mix of American civil war and global nuclear war is interesting. Keep in mind that neither Russia or China are communist. They retain the historical terms and phrases, but functionally they do not resemble anything like what is being portrayed in American media.
Russia…
Russia is not Communist.
Part 5 – 3:31 The police actually got away with harming an American citizen, filming it, and getting off with no negative consequences. Perhaps John Titor was right, because these are exactly the kinds of things that he stated would lead up to the American civil war.
Part 5 – 4:50 Our enemy was the global banking elite which were all centered in the cities.
Part 5 – 7:30 It is now Russia that is stopping the globalists, the New World Order people and the global Banking Elite.
Part 5 – 11:05 When Russia nukes our cities, they are killing off our citizen’s enemies. Our enemies are internal, not external. (According to John Titor, the nukes were accurate and relatively “clean” and used in clusters of three.)
Part 5 – 15:00 John Titor said that he would prefer to have lived the live after World War III than a peaceful solution. The only way to fix the issues is to start fresh.
Interesting stuff these John Titor predictions. And remember…
Part 3 – 42:30 The people with the most to lose would be the most untrustworthy when the world changes.
Part 3 – 43:10 “We have a saying here. Safe is anywhere a hungry person cannot walk in three days.”
So knowing this, and knowing that, and knowing history, we NEED to observe how the people of Poland managed to survive during those Hellish years from 1939 through 1945…
…and emulate them.
Which will be on another post. Please stand by.
A final Metallicman word and some final thoughts.
All this is stressful. It is stressful because there is nothing you all can do about it. So you make do with what you have. You appreciate your life and the loved ones that surround you, and you reach out to your neighbors and your community.
Take pleasure in the little things.
Take pleasure in the little things.
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Appreciate the loved ones that care for you, and give them your time and affections. Seriously too little of our precious time is being spent like this…
Appreciate the loved ones that care for you, and give them your time and affections.
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MM is a free website. It’s not a for-profit enterprise. I am doing this because I do understand how the universe works, I do understand the mediums of exchange, and the consequences of actions, and I do understand what is going on. As do our benefactors.
Stop being so profit-oriented. Start being more people-oriented. Stop thinking of money and things. Start considering people and relationships.
Expert tip
Remember, if some “expert” on the extraterrestrial issue asks you for money or to pay, they actually have ZERO experience with extraterrestrials, and ZERO knowledge of how the universe works. Exchanging knowledge for profit creates a very undesirable situation for us who know what the fuck is going on. We accept donations. We accept meals, friendships and kind words and deeds. But we do not demand financial gain.
Everything is falling into place. But do not allow the fear of what might occur change who you are internally. Things are following a specific path, and all is being actuated wihtin those vectors. Keep with the program. Be a Rufus. Appreciate the world around you. Be helpful and kind. Not hurt, trick or try to profit unneedlessly.
Be a “good guy”.
Metallicman gives some most excellent advice.
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Please look around you and take pleasure in what you see. The world is big and beautiful and there are people who are worthy of your time, your love, your consideration. Do what you can to shut out the evil and corrupted from your life, and appreciate the world that lies around you in abundance.
You’ll not find any big banners or popups here talking about cookies and privacy notices. There are no ads on this site (aside from the hosting ads – a necessary evil). Functionally and fundamentally, I just don’t make money off of this blog. It is NOT monetized. Finally, I don’t track you because I just don’t care to.
Please kindly help me out in this effort. There is a lot of effort that goes into this disclosure. I could use all the financial support that anyone could provide. Thank you very much.
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From the late 1990’s until around 2001, the Internet was “rocked”
by the sudden appearance and subsequent disappearance of a Mr. John
Titor. This person claimed to be a “time traveler” by using
inter-dimensional travel. Here is the john titor post history.
He was rapidly dismissed as a hoax, in unity, by all the major
debunking organizations, and his posts mysteriously disappeared off the
Internet. Since then, all the sources that he posted on all found that
their files related to John Titor were all corrupted and could not be
reclaimed.
That was the case for over a decade.
Then, in 2014, a number of private individuals managed to piece
together independently saved dialogs relating to John Titor. They
constructed numerous websites that hosted these reclaimed dialogs, and
posted them on the Internet for others to view.
Metallicman is one such website.
Presented here are recovered posts from the Internet collected in 2014. It is not known if any posts have been deleted or altered. They are presented as they were found by the author. This is part nine.
Due to the large size of the transcripts, I have broken it down into multiple pages. This is part nine of the huge body of information. Here is the second group “Transcripts B”. Within it are some very interesting tidbits that many enthusiasts of the John Titor issue are unaware of. These transcripts in this particular Metallicman post represent some of the most obscure and forgotten posts from John Titor.
For your information.
Important Warning
The information within this series of posts are speculative. I have no factual information if this John Titor is what he claimed to be. It is presented herein as the only (or maybe, one of the only) sources that claim to be associated with the vehicles that pop in and out of our reality from time to time. He was, as far as I know, never associated with MAJestic in any way..
John Titor is “TimeTravel_0 unregistered” in all of the following conversations. Everyone else is just other posters to the forum.
Original John Titor Posts – Part 9 – Transcripts E
Here are the original John Titor posts from the Post2Post Art Bell Forum. Obtained from HERE. This is the second group of the john titor post history.
Metallicman corrected spelling and some punctuation to make the text easier to read and understand. For unedited text, please refer to the source.
I also added some commentary to liven things up somewhat. Enjoy.
Unfortunately, we have to start with the need to endure some babbling nonsense from poster “Shadow”. He was obviously upset about the politics of that year. I greyed it out to spare the reader of the nonsensical spewing.
Shadow unregistered posted 22 December 2000 21:16
I had a flashback once, not too long ago, just a few seconds ago in fact. It had to be a flashback. I saw a former Governor of Texas, Bush I believe, saying “I wish I were a dictator but this is not a dictatorship!”
Also he mentioned something to the effect of “You are aware of the fact that any recession that may come along next year or so, is Bill’s fault, really.” FWEEEEET!
Hey pal, can I interest you in a little tax cut? Very popular in this election year you know. (Hey babe you wanna count some ballots? Your dimples are soooo cute.” “Chad, I think I might be pregnant.”)
If I’m laid off do I still get my multimillion dollar tax cut, huh Gorge? Huh Huh? George? GEORGE!!??……..”.just wait your turn sir, the President Elect is busy playing with his yo-yo right now.”
This only thing missing out of national politics right now is a Ryder rental truck full of whoopie cushions.
Yes, speaking of The Flood. The real flood can’t hold a candle to the flood of bull**** that is commin down the pike these days. Are they TRYING to whizz us off, or do they deserve an Oscar for acting as thought they were.
There are other possible explanations. Like Terminal Stupidity. Or the desire for population reduction (you). Or how about creepy aliens, time traveling spooks, or maybe even that half spoiled turkey sandwich you had for lunch.
Of coarse the screamingly hysterical part of it is that they act like we ain’t supposed to notice. Right. “Waiter, check please!”
mokrie dela Member posted 22 December 2000 21:35
It’s ok, we can wait while you extract that wild hair from your butt.
Pamela Member posted 22 December 2000 22:59
DaViper,
Just because you cannot figure out where the water came from for the Great Flood is not a good enough reason to conclude that it never took place.
In the ancient lore and legend of every culture you will find a story of a disastrous flood. These accounts vary but in distant parts of the world these stories agree on one point. Far back in history there was a cataclysmic flood which wiped out all but a handful of people.
From the Indians of north and south America to the Islanders of the Pacific and from the Chinese to at least 40 aboriginal races we find the elements of a great flood described.
Geologists of today all over the Earth find a layer of sediment which gives evidence of a worldwide flood. There are several different theories of where the water might have come from.
Here is the one I have heard:
The Earth had quite a different climate before and after the flood.
For in Genesis 2:5-6 it states that the lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth…but there went up a mist from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
They argued that Genesis 1:6 described God separating the waters on the earth from the waters above the Earth. which could describe a canopy of water vapor. Our Earth could have been in effect a giant canopy enclosed garden watered by gentle mists which came out of the ground from the reservoirs of water below the surface.
If the Earth before the flood had been surrounded by a canopy of water vapor above the Troposphere it would have compressed the air beneath and raised the average atmospheric pressure, just how much would depend on how much water the canopy contained.
This increased pressure could have resulted in a greater oxidation rate, a much more efficient metabolism and stronger, healthier people.
The shielding of water vapor canopy could have eliminated almost all genetic mutation from the harmful solar radiation.
There would be benefits of living under increased atmospheric pressure. During the aquanaut program it was discovered a cut on a aquanauts hand healed completely in 24 hours while submerged in a diving bell.
Back then the current land mass was joined together in a huge continent.
The Earth before the flood was a single land mass riding on a blanket of super-heated steam and with an overhead curtain of water vapor protecting it from harmful solar rays.
After the flood the vapor canopy was gone the Earths climate was changed.
Atmospheric pressure dropped to what it is today.
Without the water vapor canopy the Earth received more radiation from the sun and genetic mutations occurred. mans lifespan was greatly reduced. and they obviously did not live as long after the flood.
The other theory that goes with it sometimes is “the fountains of the deep” were also let lose. Gen 7:11 Which combined with the collapse of the water vapor canopy. produced a great amount of water. The ripping apart of the crust would have triggered tsunamis of unparalleled magnitude, sweeping the Earth with walls of water from the existing oceans.
The initial rupture of the earths crust would have spewed a tremendous jet of super heated steam high above the earths ionosphere. the vapor blanket resting on the air above the Earth would have been overwhelmed by the intensity and heat of this supersonic blast and would have collapsed as sheets of worldwide rain.
The jet of water which gushed high above the earths atmosphere would have encountered frigid temperatures converting the water almost instantly to ice crystals.
When the water vapor canopy which covered the Earth up to that point collapsed in rain, ending the green house effect, the temperatures on earth would have been reduced to much the same as they are today. immediately after the flood, the ice crystals formed high above the earths stratosphere would have fallen, dumping immense quantities of ice on the earths polar regions and northern latitudes. This would explain an enigma which has long perplexed the discovery of animals which had been quick frozen in Siberia and Alaska some still with undigested food in their stomachs and mouths.
There had to be an abrupt and extremely sudden change in temperature, from near tropical to extreme cold within a matter of minutes.
I kept this in my mind. and a couple of years ago i saw an article in the newspaper where scientists had found a couple miles long of water vapor in the upper atmosphere that was forming over a specific area and they didn’t know what it was doing up there. If i find the article i will post it I did cut it out and save it.
Nobody knows for sure where the water came from and can only theorize but there was plenty of evidence that it took place. I have read several scientific theories of the water vapor canopy. I could go on and on but i just don’t have time. I have several books that mention it. I just pulled a few things out of the books for you to think on.This is just one of several theories I have heard.
sincerely,
Pamela
mokrie dela Member posted 23 December 2000 12:31
Wow, what can be added to that! I do recall reading that “radiolaria”, a fossilized form of tiny sea life has been found in layers of dirt at high elevations in the darnedest places around the earth. I know nothing of biblical things but when you find petrified itty bitty fishies in mountain ranges, something incredible happened involving a whole lot of water.
Earthship Junior Member posted 23 December 2000 12:49
Thanks for that Pamela.
Has anyone read “An Ascension Handbook,” channeled material from Serapis, by Tony Stubbs ? Lots of interesting ideas in there.
warren
Pamela Member posted 23 December 2000 19:02
Well ,I found the article but unfortunately I didnot cut out the date with it. It was in the Repository Newspaper . the author is Randolph E. Schmid associate press writer.
Here it is word for word:
VAPOR FLOWS FOUND IN THE ATMOSPHERE
WASHINGTON- Massive rivers of vapor, some carrying as much water as the Amazon, have been discovered in the lower atmosphere.
Reginald E. Newell, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said thursday he was surprised to find the flows while analyzing satellite data.
His findings are reported in Geophysical Research Letters, published by the American Geophysical Union.
A half-dozen vapor rivers carry water from the equator toward the poles in relatively narrow streams, Newell explained in a telephone interview.
“I expected to see things following air masses, which usually have much larger horizontal widths. The fact that it’s concentrated was a surprise to us. ” said Newell. The flows “look like a river,” he said.
The newly discovered rivers do follow these general principles, but move the moisture in narrow streams rather than having it spread out over a large air mass.
They seem to generally trend toward the poles, Newell explained, though he has found a couple of cases in which the stream encounters a typhoon,”gets entangled in itself and goes back equatorwards.”
The rivers also display waves in their movement, he said, though why this should occur is not clear.
The researchers calculated the length of some of these rivers of vapor at as much as 4,800 miles with a width of 420 to 480 miles.
What does this mean to the world’s weather and climate? Newell and his associates are trying to figure that out.
“We haven’t solved the relation between these rivers and fronts, highs and lows and the rest of the synoptic (weather) pattern,” Newell said.
Shadow unregistered posted 23 December 2000 20:08
Morkie!
Hair extracted. I’m much better now. Thank you.
Hear no evil. see no evil, speak no evil. WHEN will I EVER learn?
WE do digress from time travel don’t we. The earth is going to fall over any minute now……..scratch that………any TIME now.
My theory on Earth Changes was dismissed because it “rested on shakey ground”. I too will wait for a time.
mokrie dela Member posted 24 December 2000 12:14 (Christmas Eve)
Shadow, Don’t feel bad, I live on shakey ground myself. As they used to say, you threw a hissy fit. HAHA We take turns on this board. Your always interesting with or without hairs; and your opinion in always important wether provable or not. Heck, I never shut up and I can’t prove anything myself.
[OK, finally we can start by ignoring the various cat claws and spitting and hissing fits, and get back to the John Titor narrative. – Metallicman]
djayr42 Member posted 24 December 2000 15:12 (Christmas Eve)
Well as far as I can tell, it seems that only two of us here are willing to answer TT_0’s questions. (Three – Shadow answered at least one question.)
What’s wrong? Are you afraid of being judged in some way?
Most of the people who post here on this forum seem to enjoy playing around (and sometimes bickering and putting each other down). So what is the problem?
It seems as though when you find out someone is observing you and says so, you clam up.
Yes I know that implies that you believe his claims or you don’t think he is worth responding to. Yet most of you will take the time to bicker.
You could just tell him that you don’t want to answer any of his questions. You can’t even do that instead you will ignore those questions and write a lengthy reply to someone else just to get your point of view across.
Well that is what TT_0 is asking for.
Why do you find so hard to answer him? It implies that you believe him more then your willing to admit. And you don’t like the idea of being classified by an observer from a future time.
I think he is right, on the whole, “sheep” – bickering sheep. Ok, you can blast me by being honest in answering TT_0 questions. (That is the only basting that is acceptable.)
Pamela Member posted 24 December 2000 16:52 (Christmas Eve)
Hi djayr42!
Actually there was another man who answered all of the questions and sent them to me to forward to timetravler_0 in private. Which I did.
Whether you beleived he was real or not, I think it was only common curtesy to answer the questions after he answered ours. And that had to take a lot of his time to answer all of our questions and debating on how much he wanted to share. when every word you say can have consequences.
Its no big deal ,he was just curious about how we feel about things as we are about him. Maybe people are just too paranoid.
It is kind of interesting though…is this how we would treat a person from another world if we ever met one?
Well anyway..hope everyone has a great Christmas!!!!!!
sincerely,
Pamela
Shadow unregistered posted 25 December 2000 21:27 (Christmas Day)
TT_0, I’m surprised that they haven’t caught you yet. I’d give dollars-to-donuts that the US military is into time travel already….since the mid sixties I’d guess. Not that its any of my business, nor do I want it to be. Maybe they don’t care. Maybe there is already intertime treaties of noninterference.
If it doesn’t make it less convient for the rich to ripp-off the masses it could well remain a non-issue.
DaViper unregistered posted 26 December 2000 03:00
Timetravel_0:
I think we’re probably closer than you think here. I’ll certainly buy your explanation of time travel as purely relative to the observer. I’m also not sure we’re that far apart on the reason there are no paradoxes. (Your Dictionary definition is of course the correct one, I was merely making a simplification of it for my own purposes.)
As to the possibility of multiple universes, well, it gets used a lot to try to explain things that can’t be explained but to me it’s a cop out due to lack of evidence and the very fact that it GETS used so much as a way to explain that which is otherwise currently un-explainable. I need more evidence. The existence of multiple universes leads me to believe that if there is more than one of them, there must therefore be an infinite number of them.
If there are an infinite number of them, then everything that can happen, has already.
I dislike this theory for two reasons. 1. It destroys the necessity for free will thereby making all descisions made by choice inherently moot. 2. It goes against “Occam’s Razor”. The principle that the simplest explaination is probably the best one. I really don’t see the Universe needing to be so complicated as to require infinite universes just to solve the concept of paradoxes.
Peace.
I thought it interesting that my little “Flood” analogy sparked such conversation.
By all means many cultures refer to “Great Floods” in their history. And Local phenomenea ARE the reason these persist in mythology.
Pamela, you’ve been reading the propaganda of the “Young Earth Creationists” I see. Their web sites are all over the place. Unfortunately, these theories they propound are not only NOT POSSIBLE, but have long since proven to be so.
Unfortunately many of these, like the so-called “Dr.” Kent Hovind have fabricated their own “degrees” in higher education. Hovind for instance, started a “University” in his living room, awarded himself a “Doctorate” in Theology, and uses this to tout his self professed “expertise” in geological and biologocal matters.
The “Vapor Cloud” myth is a fairly old one trotted out to answer the “Where did the water come from?” question. But YOUR explainations are right out of the Creationists handbook 101. And equally mythological as they are without foundation or acceptance by the Scientific Community at large.
Think about it. If it never rained before the flood, what did plants live on? As to the Vapor Cloud it self, it’s already been calculated that to produce the water necessary for world wide full deluge, the cloud would be so thick as to block out the sun entirely. Meaning it MUST have been dark always before the so called “Great Flood”. Preposterous. Every Creationists argument on this issue is totally debunk-able. Not just because it isn’t so, but because it can be PROVEN to be not so.
May I suggest you do some browsing around the various Talk Origins websites where the real scientists hang out and you’ll begin to see how truly silly some of these Literal Scripture interpretations really are.
Not that I’m arguing against (or for) the existence of God, just that if you want to view the Bible as an informative and inspirational document, may I suggest that you at least study the differences where metaphor is used instead of an intended depiction of reality.
Genesis has TWO depictions or accounts of Creation. The Creationists won’t tell you about the second one because it is contradictory to THEIR view. And supports the concept of Evolution. It’s called selective interpretation. And they engage in it all the time.
Or as the old song goes,
“Some Things That You Libel,
To Read In The Bible,
It Ain’t necessarily So.”
Good luck, and
Peace.
Pamela Member posted 26 December 2000 11:01
DaViper,
I thought I already answered the questions you posed on this particular theory to me in my last posting. I apologize I didnt have more time to post more info on it. It was only one theory out of many that I have heard. I mentioned this one because of the article I read two years ago in the city newspaper.
The book the info came from was “A scientific approach to biblical mysteries.”by Robert W. Faid. I have another book called “Beyond Star Wars.”which I cannot locate at this moment. which is a scientifically based book discussing the many theories of ancient mysteries around the world. and it also mentions the water vapor canopy. both of them mention the rain falling for forty days and nights from the canopy and the rest of the water coming from the fountains of the earth being broken up.
I have never heard of the “young earth creationists.” what is their web site? I would like to check out their theories.
One thing is certain though, DaViper, there was a flood for the evidence was left in the Earth. How it happened rests now in theories because noone knows for sure.
You know when it comes to Ancient Events most of the time all you ever have are theories because none of us were there at the time. and many things are not in existance at this time that were there in their time. Theories are formed and based on evidence found at the time and from piecing together writings or anything else found from the time period, or things found in the Earth.
Someday we shall all know the truth. Maybe someday somebody will go back and “check it out” and see for themself. I am not afraid to study anything or research any theory. I piece it all together as I go keeping everything in mind. I see things from many different angles. and eventually the truth will be known.
Peace to you always.
-Pamela
(Robert W. Faid-a nuclear scientist and consultant to the nuclear power industry, has developed patented processes which have been used to protect nuclear power plants around the world against earthquakes and flooding.)
[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 26 December 2000).]
DaViper unregistered posted 27 December 2000 15:01
Hey Pamela if you want to believe in mythology as opposed to science and fact it’s OK with me. To each his/her own so to speak.
I prefer knowledge however over the fabricated ideas of those who adjust theory to suit their particular religous beliefs.
Sure there have been floods. There’s probably one going on right now somewhere. But…
AT NO TIME was there ever a flood that covered the entire Earth. There isn’t enough water for there to ever have been. And no hocus pocus “vapor cloud” that could ever contain the amount of water needed to produce a rainfall of that proportion has EVER covered the earth.
But if you choose to believe this, fine. All the belief in the world cannot make it so.
The whole comment was an analogy in the first place.
I thought we were discussing time travel paradoxes. That’s the title of the board anyway.
Peace.
rgrunt@yahoo.com unregistered posted 27 December 2000 17:00
Sorry I have been out for a while.
Does anyone know whether the forces exerted by a universal flooding could produce the force needed to seperate all the continents in in a period of a couple of months? Given the amount of water on the earth now if the land masses were but one land mass and there was one huge earth quake that cause all the land masses to spread at a constant velocity to their present location in a period of three months or so would the kinetic force mediated through the water cause universal flooding by generating huge waves of water covering the land?
How fast would a land mass have to travel across the earth for there in order to cause the ocean in the direction of travel flow up and over the entire continent of the united states from east coast to west coast?
How high would the wall of water be?
Does the needed velocity match the biblical time period for the flood?
If the continents were to have traveled at the necessary velocity to cause the water to wave over from the pacific ocean to the Atlantic ocean for period of time that Noah’s flood was stated to have lasted in the bible could the continents have reached their present location from the pangea in that period of time at the calculated velocity?
If not how far could the continents have traveled?
How much heat would have been generated by the friction of the water over the continents surface if the water flowed over the earth?
Would it have been enough to produce steam at the calculated pressure?
If all the above proves true then is it possible find evidence in the soil for such events? If anyone is motivated enough to run a computer simulation and plug in all the variables in order to calculate the above hypothesis I would appreciate it. I do not have enough computer knowledge to run the simulation. Whoever comes up with the answers to the questions above has the write to the discovery naturally so have at it.
God bless you all and Peace,
sincerely,
Edwin G. Schasteen
[That is the problem with thes BBS chat rooms. People get side-lined on all sorts of discussions, rants and nonsense that are not germane to the subject at hand. Also, I must have spent an hour correcting this fellow’s grammar and spelling. How old is he five? -Metallicman]
Shadow unregistered posted 27 December 2000 19:35
To rgrunt
A computer sim ain’t going to predict ancient earth geologic changes any better than it can predict next years weather
Go to the library, open a textbook on geology and all your answers will there, indexed and categorized.
Alternatively there is a cool website on the subject, I believe it is www.tomato-wizzard.com.
Shadow unregistered posted 27 December 2000 20:06
Pamela
Nine out of ten theories are eventually proven false. Let the people who make them up defend them. The Earths history is unimaginably long and complex. It may indeed be harder to find something that has NOT happened over its 5 billion years.
There a million ways to be wrong and only one way to be right. Daviper will run circles around you because he’s got this million to one rule on his side.
Pamela Member posted 27 December 2000 21:41
Shadow,
Then he will get VERY DIZZY! hehehehehe
I am not here to defend or prove anything. I simply mentioned one theory out of many I had heard.
I don’t immediately disregard a theory because it may clash with any belief system I may or may not have. he’s just plain silly! heheheeh. but it was fun!
Pamela Member posted 27 December 2000 21:52
Shadow,
p.s. I cant get your tomato-wizard link to work! And I wanted to see it!
sincerely,
pamela
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DaViper unregistered posted 28 December 2000 05:11
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The laws of physics have nothing to do with a belief system.
They are what they are whether one believes them or not. All the old belief that the world was flat didn’t make it so.
All the belief that the earth was the center of the Solar System and Universe couldn’t make it so.
And all the belief in the world that a “universal flood” EVER existed can’t change the laws of physics that make such an event utterly impossible.
Where did all the water go when this “flood” was over? Evaporate into space? Sorry not possible under the laws of physics that are governed by the very gravity of the earth itself. Water which is heavier than air, evaporated into the vacume of space and left the earth’s atmosphere behind? Sorry no dice. It just doesn’t work like that as any meteorologist can tell you.
The story is based on local phenomenae at the time it originated. It probably looked to the inhabitants at the time that the “whole world” was flooded but the reality of physics is that it is not, never was, and can never be possible. (Barring collisions with several thousand Comets that is. Which would wipe out all life, change the entire structure of the mantle itself and cause evolution to start all over again.)
There is NO evidence this has ever happened in this manner.
The belief stems from the desire to insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible that the earth is but 6-8 thousand years old.
But it isn’t just that meteorology, geology, palentology, astronomy, biology, physics, quantum mechanics or cosmology each show that this is impossible, it’s that ALL these sciences agree thru related and intertwined studies that the aforementioned is simply not possible.
If one wants to toss aside ALL of these studies and the verifiable evidence they produce in favor of a mytology based on a single text that has NO proof, than I guess one is free to do so.
But an Ostrich is free to stick his head in the sand also.
Peace.
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Pamela Member posted 28 December 2000 06:08
“They are what they are whether one believes them or not. All the old belief that the world was flat didn’t make it so.”
Isnt that amazing? but yet thousands of years before they came to the conclusion that the earth was flat it was already stated that it was indeed round!
Isaiah 40:22 “…the circle of the Earth..” heheh
For some reason this subject is an offense to you so I will not discuss it with you any longer.
All science also agreed that nothing could go faster than the speed of light. Scientists beleived and accepted this theory as true for years even based other theories on it. but in the light of new evidence the theory was proved wrong.(Just this year)
I want to think beyond the current theories. For I see them for what they are..theories only, not concrete facts.Thats why I like to research many different theories and maybe even come up with some of my own.
I respect your beliefs and theory’s as I do all others.
peace.
In search of truth always,
pamela
[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 28 December 2000).]
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Rgrunt unregistered posted 28 December 2000 14:36
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Not to create dissension for I am a man of science but in my own town there were discovered dinosaur bones that were carbon dated to be 80 million years old. The bones were discovered in a farming area close to bisbee AZ. Now a christian farmer went home slaughtered one of his cows took a bone from it and snuck into the excavation site one that night and buried the cow bone so that the scientists would discover it the following day. And the scientists did. They carbon dated the cow bone and their results stated that the bone was over 50 million years old. Further more the scientist identified the cow bone as being from a dinosaur. They presented their findings that week and the farmer came publicly to dispute them pointing at his cow bone saying that the bone was not 50 million years old that and preached creation. Thge scientists debated claiming that they carbon dated the bone and this evidence proved them wrong. The farmer stated that the evidence couldn’t be right. The scientists argued with the man. And finally the man stated “that bone can’t be 50 million years old, I snuck that bone in yesterday it’s my cow bone My cow ain’t 50 million years old.” everyone laughed and the story spread throughout our town and the scientist left our town in shame and completely humiliated and bewildered. They could no longer use their arguments to sustain the hoax of evolution for in one fowl swoop by a genius farmer their entire argument was brought to ruins.
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Tomboy unregistered posted 28 December 2000 20:50
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Hey TT_0
Can u take some photos’ of the future while ur there?
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Pamela Member posted 29 December 2000 11:44
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Timetraveler_0~
When it is beginning to rain….
it is time to go rainbow gazing.
~pamela
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DaViper unregistered posted 29 December 2000 16:15
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Pamela:
I’m not sensitive about it at all. And I also respect the religious beliefs of others. (I get a kick out of some of the stories I see preffered from time to time.) But when hypothesis are profferred to suport religious belief that can be proven to be scientifically incorrect, one needs to realize that while religion is a personal matter, one cannot cancel the laws of physics in order to cling to beliefs that simply are not true.
The only people that see conflict between religion and science are staunch religionists. Sagan, Einstein et al were both believers in God. Hawking is a pure Agnostic. Which means that while he does not firmly accept the existence of God, he doesn’t reject it either.
Science is not attempting to disprove God (some scientists MAY be atheistic) but Science itself takes no stand on the existence of God. He either is, or He isn’t. To science, it matters not either way.
Hey, maybe God DID create the Earth. But it’s a simple fact that He did not create it in what WE refer to as “6 days” as is metaphorically described in Genesis.
If one’s faith is truly strong, all the scientific FACT in the world shouldn’t be able to shake it. Even when preposterous claims are made but such as ‘rgrunt’ above.
His story is an old one and is without basis in fact. It has been circulated by the “Creationists” for many years. If ‘rgrunt’ did just a little research, he would find that CARBON dating is not used in Paleontology for dating things from MILLIONS of years ago. Other radio-isotope methods are used. There are 5 all in all. Each has it’s own period of effectiviness depending on the half-life or decay rate of the isotope involved.
No scientist would even TRY to date a 50 million year old sample with Carbon dating. And any story that claims someone did is pure fabrication and bunk since no scientist would ever claim that he has.
By all means, please keep searching for the truth. But don’t take someone else’s word for anything. Do the research. The web is full of good science and “snake oil” salesmen like ‘rgrunt’.
I wish you peace and success in your search for truth.
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DaViper unregistered posted 29 December 2000 16:29
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S. Pamela:
By the way, think about this.
Physicists for quite some time now have understood radioactive decay quite well. In fact so well, we’ve been able to construct clocks based of the decay of various elements.
Since these clocks are SO accurate, they are used by NASA to time events in the travel of our space vehicles. The precision involved in sending the Pioneer, Voyager, etc Spacecraft to the outer planets for picture taking is so intricate that only atomic clocks will do.
If our understanding of radioactive decay was flawed, then these clocks would not work as we intend them too, and those planetary fly-by events we all remember NEVER took place since the craft would have missed the targets by millions of miles.
Mr. ‘rgrunt’ has some homework to do.
By the way, Evolution is observable not only in Nature but reproducable in the laboratory. Those who claim it doesn’t exist are either too afraid to admit they are wrong, or just plain too stubborn to accept reality.
It’s a scary thing to be proven wrong. Once one realizes it, one is stuck with the idea that other things one believes in MAY be wrong also. This is hard for some people to accept since it shakes the foundation of their whole belief system.
But an open mind and a willingness to actually learn will always get one through the tough spots.
I have no idea how or why the Universe came into existence, but I’m not going to worry about it. And I’m for sure NOT going to buy into ideas of how it happened that simply are not so, and can be proven to BE not so.
I bid you a good day.
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Fast Member posted 29 December 2000 17:46
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im sure that a group of scientists could tell the difference between a ‘fresh’ cow bone and a fossilized 50 Million Year Old Dinosaur bone…
Fast Out
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DaViper unregistered posted 29 December 2000 19:02
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Fast:
Yup! (heh heh).
Without even having to resort to quantum decay timelines.
Fossilization is a process where actual organic tissue is replaced by inorganic mineral deposits leaving a remnant of the original in it’s original form, but with no organic material intact.
In short, a true “fossil” is actually a form of stone, (like the “trees” in the Petrified Forest), while a bone is…well, a bone!
Only a blind idiot couldn’t tell the difference. (Actually, a “blind idiot” could weigh the two and tell the difference for that!)
Peace.
And EVERYONE have a Happy New year.
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DaViper unregistered posted 29 December 2000 19:32
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S. S.
And finally just one more…
(Couldn’t resist on this next-to-next-to-last-day before the TRUE millenium.)
To all:
For the sake of pure information and learning, may I present the following links which will hopefully lay to rest the question of the difference between metaphor and actual history in attempts to understand the writings in the Bible.
Here’s what we know on:
THE AGE OF THE EARTH http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/apprage.htm
…and since I brought up “Dr” (sic) Kent Hovind earlier, here’s a link to some of his foolishness: http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/kent_hovind’s_challenge.htm
(Please, please, take note of the arguments HE presents and truly foolish they are from a purly LOGICAL standpoint, even before you get to the science parts that show what a ignoramus he actually is.)
He’s the SOURCE of much of the foolishness that the likes of the ‘rgrunts’ of the world are pushing on us in the name of “science”.
Ha! LOL
and finally, some humor for you. (Shades of the type of stuff ‘rgrunt’ has posted above.) http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/icr_suckered_by_april_fool’s_joke.htm
Enjoy all…..
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P.Light unregistered posted 30 December 2000 04:10
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To Anyone reading this…
What happened to the man of the moment T-T-0?!
All of a sudden i come back to check on the state of the nation and i find all you people talking about “great floods” and carbon dating! LOL!
Quite ammusing!
Anyhoo…it would be nice if we focus on the topic people!
Cheers,
P.Light
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Trott unregistered posted 30 December 2000 07:45
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Mr. O,
I just read your postings. Something did catch my eye. You mentioned that the physics behind time travel will be realized within the next year at CERN. Currently, the project being run at CERN is the LEP, the large electron positron collider. It was scheduled to be shut down this past November but was not due to some potential evidence of a missing component of the Standard Model, the Higgs Boson. As you may or may not know, the Higgs boson is the theorized mechanism by which particles acquire mass. I will not mention more of this but suffice it to say that I am aware that for an object to travel at the speed of light it would have to be massless(that is to say if the photon is in fact a massless spin 1 boson as assumed). But in order to tip the light cone, you would need to travel faster than light.
While I do believe that time is not as fragile as some colleagues believe, I do find it interesting that someone would attempt to contaminate the time stream before a point in time at which time travel is possible. Actually, all current feasible theories of time travel negate the possibility of travelling back beyond the point at which the time machine was constructed.
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in the know unregistered posted 30 December 2000 09:40
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AH! Is that the official story then? When did Mr. O arrive at this board? Nov. 2, 2000 I see.
Hmmmm….then again, maybe it had absolutely nothing to do with the diagrams CERN received in Nov.—but then again—-
you never know.
good day!
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TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 30 December 2000 10:28
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(I think you know very well the answers to the questions you have asked. You just want to guage the quality of our replies, or just remind us that we SHOULD be up to speed on our constitutional rights and responsibilities.)
It would be nice to be able to remind everyone about their rights and responsibilities but I am not here to judge you. I am not capable of that nor would I want that in return. As you know, my interest is in history and in the paradox of thought. I do however, find it interesting how important the Constitution became to the average US citizen’s life, if even for a short moment.
(A young person should want to survive and live for better days ahead. At some point, however, an older person will realize, especially in the face of disaster, that better days are NOT on the horizon…….ever. What you are forecasting for 95% of the present population is 20 years of hell followed by survivors in the rubble. I’ve already put in my 40 year shift of work and worry. Why should we fret over politics on our way to slaughter? Isn’t that like telling the Captain of the Titanic, that all he has to do to save the ship is to back up really fast after the collision?)
It saddens me that you do not realize your true worth as a keeper of information and experience. Perhaps the end that we fear will open your eyes to your true value as an individual. Young people need wisdom. The captain of the ship knows where the lifeboats are.
(When it is beginning to rain….
it is time to go rainbow gazing.)
I like the lyrics. They remind me of some other songs that are oldies but goodies from where I come from…anyone know these?
…gotta be home, by sunset. She asked me to giver her a ride, said she had to go, dropped her off by the trism through the atmosphere…by prism. Gotta keep movin , it was the human race to get away, sun bends light through a prism, she bent herself through the trism… …she pulls the lever and then bright light.
— or this —
Waiting for bus number 99, goin’ to the store for hotdogs and wine when all of the sudden I felt real cold and wound up in the belly of a UFO… …Movin through the spheres at faster than light on our way to some planets that were out of sight… [well it had been 987 years in outer space when I got back, I couldn’t seem to find any of my friends to tell my interesting stories to.]
(Currently, the project being run at CERN is the LEP, the large electron positron collider. But in order to tip the light cone, you would need to travel faster than light. I do find it interesting that someone would attempt to contaminate the time stream before a point in time at which time travel is possible. Actually, all current feasible theories of time travel negate the possibility of travelling back beyond the point at which the time machine was constructed.)
I’m pretty sure they have a number of experiments going on at the same time at CERN. The one I’m referring to involves very high energies using protons. From my historical perspective on my worldline, I do recall the issue was a point of contention about 18 months ago or so. There were some scientists who thought the experiments were too dangerous to try. The time travel I refer to does not require faster than light travel and due to multiple world “reality”, paradoxes do not occur. Natural time machines do exist. Please check these web sites for the basics…on both ends of the scale.
It is true that CERN has 4 detectors/experiments but they are all centered around the LEP experiment. There are no experiments at CERN which deal with accelerating protons at this time. There is a planned experiment in 2005, when the Large Hadron collider takes over the tunnel at which the LEP is located. The experiment you refer to is not at CERN it is at RHIC in Brookhaven National Lab on Long Island, it is an attempt to create a quark gluon plasma, a form of matter which would have been present shortly after the big bang but before condensation of quarks into particles like protons and neutrons.
I am aware of the possibility of using wormholes to time travel, however you are still unable to travel back beyond the point of the creation of the wormhole. Even the Tipler cylinder does not allow a traveller to go back beyond the point at which the cylinder was made. It has been my view that in order to have controlled time travel you would need to have a description of the quantum structure of space-time, otherwise I do not see how you could undertake the calculations that would be needed. One reason it is not certain that a wormhole could be used to travel through time is because it is believed that quantum fluctations around the mouth of the wormhole would act to collapse it. Just as in a similar fashion quantum fluctations around the event horizon of a black hole act to make it radiate particles and eventually evaporate.
If you are a time traveller from 2036, how do you plan to retake your place there. Your presence in this time frame would, as you have pointed out, cause a “temporal divergence” from the natural sequence of events. If you believe in the multiverse theory, may I ask you if you have memories of an unknown uncle being around while you were young?
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TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 30 December 2000 13:17
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To Trott:
I fear our conversation is in danger of turning due to an effect that is quite common on these boards. I realize what I’m saying is quite hard to swallow and it causes debate, weather serious or entertaining. It is even more difficult when you come into the middle of a conversation or a series of questions that are a few weeks old.
Your points are all quite valid and I have discussed them at length on this and other boards for quite a while. I do not wish to antagonize you however, we both know the Tippler cylinder is only a thought experiment to explain the very real physics behind Kerr black holes. As to your other comments, again, they are all true as defined by the limits of spacelike trips on single worldlines. It does not account for travel between worldlines.
I have never claimed to be a physicist or an expert on what the CERN laboratory is doing at any given moment so I feel it is pointless to argue about what they may be doing in the future or what “breakthroughs” they will or might have. My comments about the CERN lab are in reference to particle accelerators in general and other questions that have come up in the past. The major physics break through for controlled gravity distortion does happen at CERN in your future. Heck, we haven’t even touched on “Z” field compression yet.
I suppose I could say that I was the one that traveled in time and convinced them to change their experiments but even I would have a hard time believing that one and I do not wish to insult your intelligence.
Just curious…what is it that interests you about time travel?
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Trott unregistered posted 30 December 2000 14:10
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I am a graduate student in physics. I feel that the concept of time is in need of a lot more understanding. Because of that my interest in time travel is purely scientific. I am much more interested in the nature of time itself.
I must admit however that time travel would be the greatest technological breakthrough in all history. With such a machine all questions could be answered objectively.
I apologize for wasting this much space but I thought some of you would be interested in seeing this after reading some of things I’ve been saying in the last few months. Below is the address to the news site and a copy of the text.
Global Trends 2015 – Central Intelligence Agency [CIA]
CIA
International Insitute for Strategic Studies
THE world is on the brink of a new era that may resemble the script of a James Bond film in which international affairs are increasingly determined by large and powerful organisations rather than governments, according to a study just published by the CIA in Washington.
Click to enlarge
[Large graphic]
These could include alliances between some of the most powerful criminal groups such as the Mafia and Chinese triads. Such groups, according to the CIA, “will corrupt leaders of unstable, economically fragile or failing states, insinuate themselves into troubled banks and businesses, and co-operate with insurgent political movements to control substantial geographic areas”.
The agency adds: “Their income will come from narcotics trafficking; aliens smuggling; trafficking in women and children; smuggling toxic materials, hazardous wastes, illicit arms, military technologies, and other contraband; financial fraud; and racketeering.”
The 70-page report, Global Trends 2015, will be required reading for the new president, George W Bush, and his senior policy advisers. It suggests that the early years of the coming century are likely to be filled with both potential and peril.
Compiled with help from think tanks in America and the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London, the report projects a future in which globalisation, whether in the shape of the European Union, the International Monetary Fund, giant corporations or terrorist gangs, plays an increasing part in the lives of ordinary people.
“Governments will have less and less control over flows of information, technology, diseases, migrants, arms, and financial transactions, whether licit or illicit,” it concludes.
In addition to confronting the growing economic and military power of China and India and the continuing decline of Russia, the CIA says: “Between now and 2015 terrorist tactics will become increasingly sophisticated and designed to achieve mass casualties.”
In particular it notes the growing threat of biological and chemical weapons and “suitcase” nuclear devices against the United States. In addition, it expects rogue states such as Iraq and Iran to develop long range missiles in the near future.
Iran, it says, could be testing such weapons by as early as the coming year, and cruise missiles by 2004. Iraq could have missiles capable of hitting America by 2015, with both nations developing nuclear, chemical and biological warheads.
Potential flashpoints have a familiar ring and include India and Pakistan, China’s relations with Taiwan, and the Middle East, where the best that can be hoped for is a “cold peace”.
Elsewhere, the world population will grow by more than one billion, to 7.2 billion, most of the increase coming in the mega-cities of the developing world. In Europe and Japan, an ageing population and static birthrate means that allowing more immigration may be the only way of meeting a chronic shortage of workers.
The gloomiest predictions are reserved for Africa, where Aids, famine, and continuing economic and political turmoil means that populations in many countries will actually fall. At least three billion people will live in regions where water is in increasingly short supply.
On the other hand, there is good news on energy supplies. “Energy resources will be sufficient to meet demand,” the study says. The CIA report is most optimistic on the world economy, which it says has a potential for growth not seen since the 1960s. Computer technology represents “the most significant global transformation since the Industrial Revolution”.
“At the same time, genetically modified crops will offer the potential to improve nutrition among the world’s one billion malnourished people. China’s economy will grow to overtake Europe as the world’s second largest but still behind the United States. Russia’s economy will contract to barely a fifth of America’s.
The study expects the European Union to narrow the economic gap with America. It points out, however, that “lingering labour market rigidity and state regulation” mean that “Europe will not achieve fully the dreams of parity with the US as a shaper of the global economic system”.
The 2015 report is an update of a 1997 CIA study into the world in 2010, which it admits failed to anticipate the global economic crisis that occurred between 1997 and 1998 which had the hardest impact in the Far East and Russia.
The new survey suggests a number of alternative scenarios, none of which makes happy reading. These include a trade war between Europe and America, and an alliance between terrorist organisations to attack the West. Most alarming of all, it raises the possibility of economic stagnation, followed by America abdicating its role as the world’s policeman.
At the same time tensions begin to grow in the Far East, where China orders Japan to dismantle its nuclear programme, leaving, the report says, no alternative but for “US re-engagement in Asia under adverse circumstances at the brink of a major war”.
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Fast Member posted 30 December 2000 23:59
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check this out..
words to the wise from a proclaimed time traveler from the year 2036
url: http://www.p3n.org/pn120100.shtml
things concerning TT_0 pop up everywhere..
who knows whos listening…
Fast Out
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djayr42 Member posted 31 December 2000 12:26
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So it seems to me that this is one possible, most likely scenario.
In about 4 years the voting system in this country will touch off a civil war. (Or at the very least the civil disobedience of many.) Because people will be divided about who should have power to do things, nothing will be done. When our foreign obligations become lax and we cannot hold up our end of an agreement, (in the far and mid east) they will see that as opportunity to move in on this country. They will feel that they have the right. This is going to take about 10 years for people to get angry enough to do something with more impact. During that 10-year period there will be groups (like organized crime) that will see the division of the people as an opportunity to get rich and/or get power. This will help the in those who seek to hurt this country. By the time we realize what is coming it is already too late, having been distracted by our own civil war and others with in who sought control. Basically we weren’t looking and got hit.
Doses this seem close? It has been the pattern for other countries in the past.
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TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 31 December 2000 12:43
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I’m flattered and a bit overwhelmed. I can honestly say I’ve never quite had this experience before. I appreciate the news posting. Thank you Time 02112
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TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 31 December 2000 11:00
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Well…you’re getting closer people. Here’s another one I found today. Again, I apologize for taking up this much space but I thought you’de want to see this.
Under a ring of water in a sealed chamber in the middle of the New Mexico desert lies the heart of a machine that could change the world
Michael Paterniti
Sunday December 31, 2000
It is never night inside the Machine. Even after the sun has set on the mesa and Jimmy Potter and the frogmen and the men in white jumpsuits and the men in blue jumpsuits have showered, packed up, and gone home; even as yawning, befuddled scientists – with names like Jim Bailey and Mark Derzon and Melissa Douglas – sit in offices in a nearby building, trapped by their own reflections and in the blackened windows; and even as this oesophageal dark falls over coyote and jackrabbit and moves everything towards sleep and dreams, towards the deepest centre of the night, the Machine is awake.
Its 36 Marx generators are set in a ring like a metallic Stonehenge. The 20 Rexolite disks of the vacuum chamber look like flying saucers. Its vast, concentric pool of five-weight oil and deionized water seems bottomless – real oil and real water, in half-million-gallon tanks that sit one inside the other like a wheel within a wheel. Even now, there are depths in the Machine, invisible worlds revealing themselves, the secret body of the universe floating up. Deuterium, tritium, helium.
It begins with the flip of a cyber switch in the control room at the north end of the hanger. Before a bank of computer screens, a man clicks a mouse, and then electricity, quietly sucked off the municipal power grid in Albuquerque, floods into the outer ring of Marx generators. Which is when the Machine takes control. A siren sounds, red lights flash, doors automatically lock. The frogmen and the white and blue jumpsuits clamber over the high bay, down metal steps, and retreat to a copper-coated room behind a foot of cement.
Another switch is flipped, another mouse clicked. To the piercing sound of an alarm, a countdown in the Marx generators ensues, or rather a count up, in kilovolts, comes in a monotone, almost hollow voice beneath the frantic alarm. The man in the control room on a tinny loudspeaker, the Machine speaking through the human.
‘Twenty kV…’
‘Thirty kV…’
‘Forty kV…’
At 90, the floodgates open: a pulse of electricity surges out of the Marx generators toward an inside ring of giant capacitors and then through a series of gas switches. The current is compressed by the Machine into a wild whitewater of electricity that charges toward the vacuum chamber at a speed of 60 million feet per second. On its way, it passes through painted sharks’ mouths, drawn there by the men in white and blue jumpsuits in the way that fighter pilots sometimes draw on their warplanes to show their prowess – or hide their misgivings. The electricity pours past the sharks’ mouths, is redirected downward, along the Z axis, into the vacuum chamber, blitzing and bombarding from all sides a three-dimensional target in a gold-plated can, a delicately strung array of tungsten wires the size of a spool of thread, hanging in black space like a tiny chandelier.
Driven so furiously in the Machine, and then storming the array, the pulse of electricity – enough juice now to light up America like a birthday cake – instantly vapourises the tungsten wire into plasma, a superheated ion gas. The ions hover and dance along the invisible circumference once described by the array, while a relentless magnetic field keeps pressing on them, shoving them from behind. Thrusting and squeezing and ramming until the ions can no longer resist, the centre cannot hold, and in that hot nanosecond – Boom ! Everything becomes one.
This is not a gentle conjunction but a Pandora’s box suddenly ripped open by nuclear passion, an orgy of ions. Boom ! Lightning fills the Machine, veins out over the surface of the water. Temperatures flare to those inside the sun. The earth rocks once again. And in few billionths of a second, 290 terawatts – 80 times the power generated on earth at any given time – roar to life inside the Machine.
Watching it through a Plexiglas window, you might as well be watching the beginning of the universe. Or the end of it. Contained in that single flash of white light, when the Machine holds the heat and the power of the sun, when the room fills with lightning, there is everything we know – and everything we may become. The 21st century. A world covered by rooms of little suns, generating intense energy and, with it, the possibilities of time travel and galaxy hopping. Peace among nations. Or the end of time as we know it, a hole ripped in the universe by the Machine, something many doomsayers predict, and the earth sucked into oblivion. Our downfall or salvation. A fusion machine they call Z.
The magic bean; the Holy Grail: fusion. The idea is to take two isotopes of the hydrogen atom – deuterium and tritium – and mash them together with a little energy, which in turn releases enormous amounts of energy in the form of a single neutron. Contrarily, fission, the method widely employed by today’s nuclear reactors, splits heavy uranium and plutonium atoms, creating lots of energy but also tons of dangerous and everlasting radioactive waste. Fusion offers a clean source, borne out of the material of roughly a handful of water and a handful of earth, with its only by-product being an easily disposable helium-4 nucleus.
What would fusion mean? Endless, cheap energy. Amazing Star Trek , space-travel possibilities. Fame, fortune, and undoubtedly a Nobel or two for the lucky scientists. For the better part of five decades, the race has two separate approaches: magnetic confinement and inertial confinement. Most researchers – those from Japan, Russia, Europe and America – focus on the former: big accelerators called stellarators, spheromaks, and tokamaks (a machine designed partly by Andrei Sakharov) use huge magnets to contain and compress hydrogen isotopes that hover in a kind of reddish-blue plasma inside the huge torus-shaped tubes until implosion.
On the other hand, the idea behind inertial confinement is that tiny fuel pellets of deuterium and tritium are bombarded by lasers or X-rays. In the case of the Z Machine, the explosion that occurs when ions are released by the vapourised wire array, and then when ions are pinched together, creates a huge X-ray pulse, one that scientists hope can be used to heat the tiny pellets and, in turn, create a small thermonuclear explosion. As it is, fusion has never been achieved for an extended time outside the explosion of a hydrogen bomb.
The first time scientists attempted to shoot an early incarnation of the Z machine, in June 1980, there was bravado and false bravado and downright fear. At Sandia National Laboratories on Kirtland Air Force Base, in the same New Mexican high-desert landscape of America’s greatest, most frightening nuclear discoveries, they’d been working on the Machine for four years. Yet there were still unknown variables, a scientist’s nightmare. First, it was so much bigger and more powerful than any of its predecessors. What if the Marx generators blew up before it could be shot? What if residual X-ray radiation contaminated people in the area? Or a fire destroyed the complex? And what if everything worked perfectly and they got a huge energy release that blew up Albuquerque itself? It was a scenario that had been considered at the highest level. As had something worse: what if people later wished that it had been only Albuquerque that blew up?
The shot – Sandia shorthand for the firing of the Machine – was scheduled for a Friday night. But then the machine blew a fitting. The technical crew – the frogmen, as well as the men in white and blue jumpsuits – worked feverishly, and by Saturday noon the Machine was ready again. ‘No one knew what to expect,’ remembers Gerry Yonas, 58, an engineer and physicist and one of the founding fathers of the Z Machine. They took all necessary precautions, charged the Marx generators, and crossed their fingers. A switch was flipped, electricity pulsated into the Machine, ripped through the switches, stormed on to the wires. There was a wicked jolt, and… silence. Sweet, beautiful silence. Everyone was still on earth; everything seemed to work. The feeling was surreal. ‘I felt the ground shake,’ says Yonas, grinning at the memory, ‘and everybody said: “Let’s do it again!” Nobody wanted to go home. I had to kick them out. There was nowhere else in the world to be. This was the beginning.’
The scientists, at that time a group of 20 or so men, threw high fives and drank beer. Pure, silly jubilation. Only later, photographs of what actually had occurred inside the Machine made them gasp: huge dragon snorts of fire filled the hangar. Apparently, plumes of oil had sprayed skyward in the instant of explosion, flamed, and then flamed out before the men returned inside the Machine. They had nearly blown themselves up. By the grace of some benevolent god, or the Machine itself, they were allowed to return to work on Monday morning, giddy limbs intact.
Over the next 15 years, the Z Machine gradually improved its output, packing an astonishing wallop – 20 trillion watts’ worth of electrical output, as compared with the mea gre 100,000 amps of the first machine – but it wasn’t enough. Scientists and theoreticians estimated that for high-yield fusion to be achieved inside the Machine, it would need to generate something over 1,000 trillion watts. A factor of at least 50 of Z’s output.
Which is when the men in suits and ties tried to kill the Machine. It was a dinosaur, they argued, no longer useful. They felt Z-pinch technology could not yield the mother lode. By 1995, even Yonas, who was about to become a grandfather, was acutely feeling the passage of time. He sadly had to admit that maybe he should sacrifice Z and all the optimism that had driven the project. Perhaps achieving high-yield fusion, something scientists compare to the invention of the lightbulb for its potential to change the world, did indeed belong to the other fusion machines, the stellarators and spheromaks and tokamaks. To the Russians or the Japanese or the British or the confederate nerds at Princeton or Lawrence Livermore or Oak Ridge. And maybe Sandia National Laboratories – over time, a place known more for its secretive mystique, its downright weird nefariousness, dating to the cloak-and-dagger days of Little Boy and Fat Man – would have to sit on the sidelines while someone else gave the world perhaps its greatest legacy.
But a funny thing happened on the way to the chop shop. Maybe it was 11th-hour desperation, or some invisible bolt of providence visited on a few overworked scientists, a couple of whom lit on the simple idea of stringing the wire array, the spool-sized target at the centre of the Machine, with double, then triple, the tungsten wire. All of a sudden – Boom ! Forty trillion watts! No one believed it. They reconfigured the Machine, boosting its X-ray production. Then someone, Melissa Douglas, thought to stack the arrays. Boom ! Two hundred trillion watts in a single pulse! Short of a nuclear blast, it was the most energy ever released on earth, and suddenly, in 1998, after five decades of chasing the illusion of high-yield fusion, of regarding it as some far-off Atlantis or dark galaxy’s edge, the Z Machine was a third of the way there.
In science, if you do something once that’s never been done before, it’s considered a mistake. Do it twice, and it’s simply a mirage. But the third time it becomes the truth. With Z’s new, seemingly impossible results came the first flickering sign that some deep, unknowable power resided in the Machine. And so today, the Z Machine is considered one of the world’s best hopes for achieving fusion. ‘We may not understand how we get these huge pulses of power, the meaning may still elude us,’ says Yonas. ‘But it’s still a fact.’
One that Yonas himself, at first, had a hard time grasping. After he was handed the results, he remembers squinting at them, and sitting back at his desk as if blown by a solar wind. ‘My God,’ he said in a small voice. ‘This could work. This could really work.’
Listen to the Z scientists, to their best idea (‘The use of stark-shifted emissions to measure electric-field fluctuations and acceleration gaps’), and their dream (‘To remedy plasmic instability and create higher temp- eratures’), and you enter a kind of friend country that becomes an Andean prison from which it gets harder and harder to escape. The scientists admit that, at moments, their whole selves are inseparable from the Machine, that the pull of the Machine is so great that re-entering normal life can be nearly impossible.
Jim Bailey, a handsome, soft-spoken, loafer-wearing plasma physicist whose conversation is peppered with references to spectroscopy and ‘the visible regime’, says sometimes it’s even hard to go to a neighbour’s barbecue – can’t make small talk, can’t communicate what you do – let alone talk to your wife. Mark Derzon, a boyish, bearded nuclear physicist, says he works a system with his wife: when he walks through the door at the end of a day, he says green light (‘Yes, everything is fine, I’m ready for the kids’); yellow light (‘Give me 15 to decompress’); or red light (‘I need time’). Melissa Douglas says that there’s no line drawn at all between the Machine and her private life – that the Machine, her place inside of the Machine, studying something called Rayleigh-Taylor instabilities, is her private life. And now, at the age of 36, she’s watched her friends get married, have families, settle, and on occasion she’s wondered to herself: ‘what am I doing? Can we really make fusion work?’
Since the 1950s, the US government has invested nearly $15bn to find out, always with the promise that fusion is just around the corner – two, three, five years away – and, with it, a fusion revolution that would hurtle us to the centre of the earth, the deepest trenches of the ocean, and the farthest reaches of space. A revolution that would morph the Third World into the First World until we are simply One World.
After all, how many wars have been fought over oil? And then, with oil reserves expected to reach full depletion by 2050, how many more will be? Remove oil as a vital component of our speed-driven, chip-fitted age and, sure, people would find things to brawl over, but energy wouldn’t be one of them.
And with limitless, cheap energy, the development of poorer nations wouldn’t be one of them, either.
And with development, the have-nots and pariahs of the world would theoretically join the haves, and so food and housing and education wouldn’t be one of them.
And with a higher standard of living would come a new freedom for humanity. For at its heart, fusion, as a Utopian ideal, has always symbolised freedom; freedom from the mistakes and waste of our past, the Hanford Reservations and the Savannah River Sites – those vast, spooky, radiating underground storage facilities chambered with containers of plutonium and iodine waste, on top of which America is built. Though left unsaid, the race for fusion has always been about democracy or a democratic alternative.
And yet one of the biggest threats to fusion comes from the same group of people responsible for the Hanford Reservations and the Savannah River Sites: the US Government. Recently, Congress and various federal agencies have become disenchanted by the fusion dream. Critics have lambasted it as a waste of time and money. If we haven’t achieved it in the last 45 years, they argue, we never will. The US has dropped out of a proposed $10bn international fusion project called ITER, leaving the facility in doubt of completion. Meanwhile, the government has spent $3bn, with as much as an additional $43bn to come, on developing Nevada’s Yucca Mountain as a vast nuclear-waste site – despite well-documented problems – and continues its commitment to fission reactors despite the fact that radioactive waste can be lethal up to 600 millennia after burial. Leaders in fusion field, like the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, have mothballed their big machines, laid off staff, and now are fighting simply for their own survival.
‘You have to find a way to justify doing something that you may never see accomplished in your lifetime,’ says Jim Bailey, who has a penchant for reading Hume. ‘I mean, instead I could be working for a cancer cure, with at least a greater hope of finding one. But I’m OK with this. I’ve made my peace with it. Fusion will be the greatest scientific achievement of our time.’
Yonas, with the Super Bowl confidence of Joe Namath, predicts that usable high-yield fusion will be made available to the American public by an accelerator called X-1, a generation or two beyond Z, within three decades – maybe sooner. Mark Derzon, a member of what’s called the Advanced Concepts Group at Z, has designed what would be the first practical Z-pinch reactor – ‘A zero-miracle power plant,’ he cheerfully proclaims, and believes that the Z technology is rougher and tougher, able to sustain more of the constant rock and roll of such a plant, than are the sensitive lasers and vacuums necessary for magnetic confinement. But optimism usually carries the day only past lunch; the request to draw up preliminary plans for X-1, with its price tag of up to $1bn dollars, is likely to be approved by the Department of Energy.
‘Every day, it’s a leap of faith,’ says Neal Singer, a science writer at Sandia. ‘Adding wires to the array – where did that idea come from? From the outside it makes no sense. It’s incredibly complex and difficult to string tungsten wires 1/10th the diameter of a piece of hair and space them perfectly. And they did it and got tremendous results. Then they added more and more, spaced them a little differently and now we’re a third of the way there. It takes these little steps, this day-by-day thinking. Hour after hour. Ten, 12, 14 hours a day. The constant question is, Can you just make a little change to influence the result?’
Thus the world inside the Machine is driven down to its smallest, most maddening detail. For in the end, fusion – its possibility and reality, its attainment and capture – comes out of this finely tuned call-and-response with the universe itself, the channelling of some great unknown, copulating force that calls for the perfect alignment of human and Machine. That is, the human culture surrounding the Machine attempts to mimic the Machine itself , which is trying to mimic the universe. The mannerisms of the Machine become the mannerisms of its minions – people rage and tyrannise, overheat, relent, synergise, procreate, vanish, and recur. One idea seems brilliant and fails, while another may start as a quail but then, compressed by other ideas – electrons stripping off, ions colliding – transforms into something sharp and fast, something agitatingly, beautifully right. And then, of course, it is shot into the Machine to see if it is.
Still there is Melissa Douglas’s nagging doubt, which is the nagging doubt of everyone here. On certain days, it is possible to believe that you are merely trapped in the rubble of some cosmic joke with no punch line, that Godot is eating chilli dogs somewhere and won’t be able to make it. After all, Jim Bailey’s lab books are full of 13 years’ worth of jottings; Mark Derzon has pulled countless all-nighters in the name of what may or may not be the reactor of the future; Melissa Douglas has spent entire months of her life obsessing over a single equation, the pallor of her face reflecting only pale computer light – all of this thought and activity and faith belying the possibility that their efforts might be for nothing. And yet as much as the race for fusion is a race against the Russians at Triniti labs, or the Germans at FZK labs, or other American scientists at Lawrence Livermore, it’s also literally a race against the ticking internal clocks of each scientist who entertains the question: will I live to see it?
‘History forgets the individual,’ says Mark Derzon pensively, surrounded by no fewer than 30 photographs of his young daughters. ‘One day Plato will be forgotten. Ultimately, the name you make for yourself is not the important thing. It’s what you did, what you stood up for, what you acted on. Did you try to make the world a better place? In order to do it, the world needs fusion. I just happen to think that Z is the best way to get there. And we’re going to have one serious pizza party around here if it is.’
Jimmy Potter stands inside the Machine, glaring down into the half-million-gallon pool of water at the submerged refrigerator-sized capacitors where, he suspects, there may be a broken, bubbling gas switch. Potter, a Texan, is the keeper of the Beast, the man who oversees the whole shebang for today’s shot. ‘Are those bubbles down there?’ he asks out loud, vexed. ‘We already sent the divers in. I sure hope not.’
If Potter is driven by perfection, then he is merely a reflection of the culture at Sandia National Laboratories. And if the quest for fusion is intensely competitive, Moonily quixotic, and at times downright nasty, then Sandia mirrors, among its myriad projects, many of those same contradictory characteristics. Top secret or otherwise, spread over the dusty 27-square-mile patch of Kirtland Airforce Base, the projects include the training of honeybees to detect land mines, the invention of a foam that kills anthrax, the making of a synthetic sludge, and the perfecting of various micromachines, some so small as to be undetectable by the human eye, which might be used to lock down nuclear weapons. Sandia is the home to Teraflops, the fastest computer in the world, as well as the birthplace of moly-99, a radioactive substance widely used in medical procedures. On the east of the base, behind three rows of concertina wire, is a cluster of foothills rumoured to be now-empty nuclear silos. They seem to stand as a reminder of how closely the isotopes of Thanatos and Eros can be held in the same idea, for it to be a real idea, a saving idea, both have to be there, threatening to undo us and remake us at once. To obliterate and immortalise.
Potter couldn’t care about all that. ‘My job is to work with the personalities here,’ he says, now pacing the high bay, twitching with pent-up energy. He slips behind a pig (a radiation shield), and checks a silver box that houses a cryogenic pump. He monitors the tech crew, confers with the lead scientist on the shot, keeps everything running on time. ‘You’ve got your top of the Ivy League class,’ he continues. ‘You’ve got prima donnas with huge egos. And you’ve got technicians who at least graduated high school. Nobody can operate without the other. The first thing that happens with two strong personalities is clash. It’s my job to go to one and bring him up and maybe bring the other one down and then bring them together.’
Of course, there are days when everything feels charged with Shakespearean plots and counterplots, days when tension fills up around the Machine. All of it is caused by the Machine, which rarely exists, of course, in its aluminum-and-Rexolite grandeur, oblivious. There is head-butting between the young comers kicking with ideas and the upper echelon of Z veterans, who ultimately hold the power here. There are Iagos trying to ice someone else’s idea in order to promote their own. (The lab rewards the best with bonuses.)
‘I’ve become a lot more aggressive,’ says Melissa Douglas, one of only three women among the 60 full-time scientists who work on Z. ‘You have to really stand your ground. It was very hard for me to do that at first.’ In four years on the project, she remembers her worst day as the one when she delivered a seminar and a colleague heckled her mercilessly. Why? Was she that stupid? Did her PhD in plasma physics and her postdoc at Los Alamos make her that inept? So she took her weakness, her insecurity, her lack, and shot it into the Machine, and it came back as power, 290 terawatts’ worth.
As have others. Marriage is shot in. Love is shot in. Innocence and experience and numbers are shot in, and come back as something almost holy.
While many of these scientists consider themselves agnostic, they are quick to admit that they still find themselves in thrall to the unknown, to the force that pulses through the Machine. ‘In a deep sense, I would say that my greatest satisfaction here comes from the act of creation,’ says Jim Bailey. ‘Because what we’re trying to do is create knowledge that didn’t exist before. Whether that brings us closer to God or not, I don’t know. It brings us closer to an understanding of the universe, and if you want to think of God in those terms, then I suppose you could define it that way.’
Melissa Douglas describes the charge of joy she gets from a perfect photograph of a Rayleigh-Taylor instability taken inside the vacuum chamber by a pinhole camera at the moment of the wire array’s implosion. ‘A beautiful picture!’ she says, holding up a snapshot that looks more like a Rorschach test – kind of blobby with spikes and valleys. ‘It sounds ridiculous, but when I first saw it I jumped and hopped around the room. Ecstatic. Just amazing. Being around this machine, you can’t help but feel awe. The universe is mathematical and, you know, God is a mathematician.’
And Jimmy Potter – Jimmy Potter is clearing the high bay as sirens sound for all personnel to vacate the Machine and retreat to the control room. Today’s shot will attempt to find a way to bombard the wire array uniformly with electricity, so that each last kilovolt of energy can be accelerated into the Machine and come back as more. ‘I mean, how do you explain all this to someone outside of this place?’ he says, gesturing toward the Machine. ‘We don’t make a product that can be sold. You can’t really see what’s going on on in that vacuum chamber. I usually just tell people I work with X-rays. That we’ve got a big machine doing big things, and one day we’re gonna change your life.’
Dawn inside the Machine, and it’s silent. The frogmen and the men in white and blue jumpsuits are arriving, shaking off their sleep, downing coffee. Jimmy Potter got the shot last night, downloaded the diagnostics, sent everyone home saying they’d take apart the Machine today, and then drove the half hour to his house, over the mesa and the beautiful landscape, to his wife and kids, trying to forget this place for a few hours. At 5.30am, he was back, rallying the crew, which now has sluggishly begun its work, drilling and hammering at the vacuum chamber.
The people of Z admit there’s a new inten sity, especially given the Machine’s recent exponential gains. There’s something to prove – and they need to prove it fast. Plans to win funds to build a cheaper, intermediary machine named ZX, one that will lead to X-1, are the stuff of new worry and hope. And, like life on the edge of any new frontier, there is still the possibility of danger.
But there are dreamy days here as well. There are times when some Z scientists find it hard not to let there minds wander, to entertain versions of fusion-propelled rockets arcing the local solar systems, of fuel stations on the moon or Io or Pluto, wherever you can pick up a little lithium and water. And there are others who imagine it as the Peace and Love Machine, who’ve put their trust and idealism for the best possible world in Z. And to get Peace and Love from the Machine, they have to shoot in their souls, holding nothing back.
Now the crane groans over its huge tracks above the Machine, preparing to lift off the 8,000lb crown of the vacuum chamber. Last evening, the Machine inhaled the sun, this room filled with lightning, and then everything exploded. Now, when the crown is unbolted, hitched to a hook, and lifted away by the crane, a group of men tentatively peer down into the Machine, goggle-eyed, perhaps expecting to find some traces of gold dust or, more absurdly, a pile of confetti – or, by some miracle of the universe, maybe a fully formed angel, sleeping with its white wings pleached and sooty, its legs twisted under its body, both comical and impossible.
So the men look and look, down into the centre of Z, the womb of the Machine, for some message there sent back from the invisible world. But it is just a well of black space – plasma and atoms unable to hold the weight of their gaze, the chill of their wonder.
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NoTime unregistered posted 31 December 2000 11:34
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A “Z” machine with a Marx generator — is this something invented by Zeppo Marx?
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Rgrunt unregistered posted 31 December 2000 13:07
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Dear Mr Deviper,
Interesting indeed I will look up the points you stated for they are quite compelling. I do admit that the information I recieved came second hand so I trully cannot vouch for the accuracy of the statements in the story and I appologize to the people on the forum for the confusion. My father once told me that there are two topics that can never be agreed upon…religion and politics. However I do hold to my beliefs but without having performed carbon dating or other methods myself I cannot testify for or against their legitimacy. Is there any documented proof of a positive recorded in any lab? If do you have access to this proof that you may back your claims that creation is completely proven wrong as you so subtely implored in the last two paragraphs? Can you explain to me how it is more logical for such an intelligent existance to acurr merely by trillions of chance happenings whose probabillity of actually acurring is practically imeasurable then for an infinitely intelligent creator to have planned the creation. Do the numbers it is far more logical and probable for the universe to have been created then just to have acurred. By the way infinity has to exist. For infinity not to exist is a violation of thermal dynamics in that something cannot come from nothing. So if every chance happening accurs from a “big bang” before which nothing existed then something came from nothing. No this is not disputed by religion but by scientific law. Tell me how to get around this one. Let us first try to analyse order and chaos. In an infinite period of time does a universe with a mixture of order and chaos degrade to pure chaos resulting in a constant state of infinite entropy. Or does the universe gravitate to a universe of infinite order? Hot or Cold is the big question. If, on the one hand we have an infinite number of quantized randoms confined to a volume what is the shape of that volume? In this case the shape of the volume will be a perfect sphere on acount an infinite number of two or three constantly varying shapes would be at such compression as to form a constant uniform surface or volume. Thus an infinite number of randoms equills perfect order…yet even in such a universe we are measuring the randoms which must therefore exist. The measurement we made and the deduction is in no way connected to the origins of the quantities existant therein by a subtransfinite period. I say subtransfinite instead of infinite because I believe the universe is both finite and infinite and that time and space are quatiized and any movement in them. Thusly I believe that the distance in a finite space-time to infinity in this bounded space-time is finite. Thus any numeral beyond the barrier of the universe is not infinite but a finite number to big to fit in this universe so it exists in the area beyond the present universe…the past or future. If measure infinity in the small beyond any given center mass lies superluminosity and therefore past. The velocity of light is the folcrum point that exists in and marks the boundary between the infinite past and infinite future.I imagine that at this velocity one could part this reality and find another in the past or come in contact with the future. Tell me what would happen to matter if one were to burst infinitely into the future and back in a splitt second? I appologize I got side tracked this is supposed to be an inquisition to evaluate whether or not science supports or crumbles Creation. I appologize I have tried to see how a universe of nonexistance could come into to existance in the form of an infinite number of randoms and I can see no logic in this only a border created to establish the area of impossibility within for the existance of a universe to derive from nothing. But the relation that I see between the domain of non-existance and existance is unstated. I would have said non-linear but even these mathematical interactions acurr within the finite universe. It would appear that only super finite actions could exist within this region of nonexistance thus defining this region an infinite(beyond finite). I see no place for nothing in existance. There is no displacement within an infinite mass and I can therefore not see the possiblility of manufacturing a place of non existance save by an infinite being who alone could traverse this clause to make a domain existant seperated on all sides from the rest of existance by a border of absolute absolute infinite limit.
All of this is purely my own ascertaining so it more then likely contains some flaws. I also want to state that I ment no insult by the way I stated my view up on top but this is merely how I learned to debate. I assumed creation side of the arguement and stated what I could ascertain in the hopes that others will debate my claims so that I and others may gain knowlege.
Teach me,
let us discover the truth.
Edwin G. Schasteen
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Trott Member posted 31 December 2000 23:51
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Who receives the Nobel Prize for inventing time travel? Surely, since there is a divergence from your time line such information would be of no consequence to divulge.
(This group of postings not numbered. Not sure where it went.)
TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 30 December 2000 11:47
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Greetings and happy holidays everyone. I am very surprised and delighted to see the conversation going in the direction it has on this thread. Unknowingly, you all have stepped into the real mystery of time travel that remains speculative in 2036. Based on a couple of questions I see here, I will try my hardest to describe what we in 2036 think space-time looks like and how it behaves. Please keep in mind that I realize how easy it is to dismiss what I say. First, I’m trying to do this from memory. Imagine you are back in 1911 trying to explain a jet engine to the Wright brothers. However, there are some very basic properties of quantum theory that support this model today. I appreciate the fact that you are reading this with an open mind.
(If parallel universes do exist, did they all start simultaneously? I mean, let’s assume that the universe originated from a singularity. Were there any parallel universes at that point? That would not be very logical and it would also imply that there is a parallel universe in which our universe never existed.)
It is thought that the event called the “Big Bang” was the start of not only this worldline or universe but all worldlines and all universes that make up the superuniverse. It is also thought that the superuniverse can be imagined as an expanding sphere with the big bang in the center.
Individual worldliness (or timelines as you call them) can be imagined as lines originating at the center and “trending” toward spiraling around the sphere until they reach the edge. The individual worldlines expand in length and widen as you follow them from the center. Each individual “moment” or “event” on a world line has infinite possibilities or outcomes. Imagine this as a single point with infinite lines shooting away from it, which in turn are made up of points with their own possibilities and outcomes. Now, remember, these individual worldliness with all these points and possibilities are defined by their ability to hold there inhabitants to timelike trips only (no faster than light travel).
Now consider the reality of a spinning or electrified black hole (Kerr). Penrose diagrams of these oddities show mathematically that you can make simulated spacelike trips (faster than light) through the singularity without being destroyed. In order to do this without wiping out most modern physical laws, you must travel to an alternate worldline or universe. Therefore, if multiple worldlines exist, infinite worldlines exist.
In trying to imagine a superuniverse with infinite possibilities and worldlines, I think of a room with mirrors on all the walls. You are aware of your captivity but as you look in the distance, you see an infinite number of “yours” in an infinite number of mirrored rooms. The gravity distortion machine allows you to “step” out of your room and into another next to you. The closer you are to your original room, the closer it looks like yours, the farther away, the stranger it looks to you.
(…If I go forward on this world line, the future will not be my future. I get home by going back to 1975 before I arrived and then going forward to 2036.”)
A few people have asked me about this statement so I will try to clarify it.
On my worldline (A) in 2036, I was given a mission in 1975.
I turn my machine on and jump to another worldline (B) in 1975 with about a 2% divergence from (A).
From the very point I turn my machine off on (B), I create a new worldline just because I’m there. This line can be described as (C) and started when I got to (B).
I am now doing my mission on line (C) in 1975 when I discover a very a good reason to go forward on (C) and see what happened. I turn my machine on and go forward on (C) to the year 2000.
When I turn it off, I start another line called (D). So from my perspective, here we are on line (D) in the year 2000. In order to go home to line (A) I must turn my machine on and go back on (D) until I reach (C) which in turn would take me back to (B) which in turn takes me to a point before I arrived on (B) then I go forward from the point I arrived on (B) back to (A).
If all this isn’t enough to get your head spinning…here are some issues we’re dealing with in 2036.
Did your worldline (D) exist at all before I got here from (C)? (personally I don’t see how it couldn’t)
What happens at the end of a worldine at the edge of the superuniverse?
If there are infinite worldlines and infinite possibilities and an edge to the superuniverse, doesn’t that mean occurring events on worldliness are staggered as they reach the edge? (time could end at any moment without warning).
Happy new year everyone!
TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 30 December 2000 13:37
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To: Roel van Houten
Thank you for trying to answer those questions but I really do not expect that anyone can. I thought I would share with you things we wonder about. Your logic about me is quite correct but again I must state that I am not trying to get you or anyone else to believe or buy anything.
As far as evidence goes…I have however decided to try an experiment with you that may be more convincing. It involves the travel of information at faster than light. In fact, I have dropped at least three little gems like this that no one else has picked up on.
You said you are confused by the 5100 story. I will explain further. In 2036, it was discovered (or at least known after testing) that the 5100 computer was capable of reading and changing all of the legacy code written by IBM before the release of that system and still be able to create new code in APL and basic. That is the reason we need it in 2036. However, that information was never published by IBM because it would have probably destroyed a large part of their business infrastructure in the early 70s. In fact, I would bet the engineers were probably told to keep their mouth’s shut.
Therefore, if I were not here now telling you this, that information would not be discovered for another 36 years. Yet, I would bet there is someone out there who can do the research and discover I am telling the truth. There must be an old IBM engineer out there someplace that worked on the 5100. They just might not have ever asked if I hadn’t pointed it out.
TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 06 January 2001 13:10
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((I realize that you said you are not a physicist, but I was curious if you are from the future: What is the current status of string theory?))
Who doesn’t love string theory? Please forgive the next few comments, I’m trying to be cryptic and jump starting my memory at the same time. In 2036, string theory still dominates physics due to its continued “effect” of encompassing other physical properties from unrelated fields. A great deal of the theoretical mathematics behind time travel was discovered by testing various ideas in string theory and eliminating the anomalies. As I recall, it was this original work that led to the final proof that six dimensions do indeed curl up to give us our observable universe. This in turn supported more of the theoretical math behind time travel…etc. It’s ironic that the beauty of string theory gives future engineers the confidence to create the distortion unit even though the final proof is still unknown You’re a physics student, have you ever heard the Princeton String Quartet play?
Trott Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 20:40
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Mr. TT_0,
I am familiar with the Princeton String Quartet. They are physicist who are working on string theory at the Advanced Institute of Physics at Princeton University in New Jersey.
You mentioned a divergence from time lines. How is it possible to measure such a divergence? I would assume that it would be impossible to calculate how causes of one single event would propagte into the future. Does not chaos theory make such determinations impossible? Even if I gave you the exact position and velocity of all objects in the universe (which is impossible(I can not even give you the exact position and velocity of a single object due to the Heisenberg Uncertainity Principle)) you could not tell me what the future holds. Of course this results from the fact that the objects do not represent individual closed systems but in fact can interact.
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Trott Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 20:53
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P.S.
You said 6 curled up dimensions. The current theory suggests that there should be at least 7 curled up dimensions. It was discovered by Ed Witten that if you added an additional dimension that the 5 slightly different versions of string theory would combine into a single theory, which is often called M-theory.
I think it would be interesting if one of these extra dimensions was timelike. There are very few people investigating this possibility.
IP: Lo
TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 15 January 2001 13:36
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RGRUNT:
Thank you for considering the problem of returning home. You seem to have stumbled on an intuitive proof of some of the physics of time travel. You are correct, getting back to the worldline of origin is easier than picking an exact destination on a different worldline.
I wrote down the graphic you outlined. If y1 starts perpendicular to x1 and x2 and is rotated, where is the center of rotation? I imagined it between x1 and x2. If this is so, wouldn’t y1 end up parallel between x1 and x2 with each one being 6 inches away from y1 on either side?
SHADOW:
((The artificial singularity you travel with, you say it forms a local gravity field. Does it physically reduce the size of nearby objects during operation? And if so by how much? ))
Actually, there are 2 singularities in the unit. The gravity field is manipulated by three factors that affect it in distinct ways. Adding electric charge to the singularities increases the diameter of the inner event horizons. Adding mass to the singularities increases the area of gravitational influence around the singularities. Rotating and positioning the polar axis of the singularities affects and alters the gravity sinusoid.
The effects of the gravity produced by the unit do not have enough time to significantly alter physical objects within a reasonable distance from the outside of the sinusoid. No, things do not get smaller.
((If the electron injection system alters the shape of the field, would that not force the unit to accelerate through space as well as time?))
There is no relative movement in space due to three main factors. Large, kinetic energy inducing effects of the gravity field are compensated for by the interaction of the singularities. The mass of the unit and any objects inside the sinusoid do not exhibit any huge increases on the departure worldline during travel. The observed path of the traveler is obtained by changing the gravity, not by moving the vehicle. The black hole comes to you.
((The question is define “time”))
To me, time has two definitions.
I see time as a mathematical component of a 10 dimensional super universe. It is a variable I use to define my location and existence.
I also see time as a metaphysical compromise our senses use to define the area of collective existence God has placed us in.
When I can measure and sense time, I know I am not with God.
piecing together the information in the faxes provided by the “waverider” it sounds to me that if this be true then it is some form of advanced remote viewing.consider the following on how he describes how he time travels:
“I am a time traveler. Although we refer to it as riding the wave. I am a US citizen born in 1964. I am nearly 40 years old. In 1983 I enlisted in the united states Army .it was shortly after my enlistment and before completing basic training that I was approached by those I now refer to simply as MY FRIENDS. This group does not contain aliens nor interdimensional beings, they are human.
I have learned over the years that not everyone can safely travel the wave, and I was first approached, I was told, due to an unusually large amount of some chemical that naturally occurs in the human body, it somehow aids in the time travel process,(MY FRIENDS told me what chemical it was back then,but that was many years ago. and I have long forgotten the name of the stuff. I think it has some copper or something in it.) I have since learned that when i enlisted in the US ARmy MY FRIENDS gained a large amount of information about me. My genetic history and so forth, and it was this information that changed my life forever.”
“I should first explain how I travel in time. The short and sweet of it is that I was taught to target a particular person, place or event. The more information I have on the target the better my chance of success and the faster I reach my target. I take a photo of the target. a sheet of paper with the information on it, a map of the site etc. I circle the target and begin the process. I then enter a quiet darkened area (we use to call it the pad) a period of concentration and meditation begins. For days, weeks, sometimes even months after beginning I will study the target, concentrate on the target,even begin to dress in the period clothing of the target during my time in the pad ( only about two hours per day is all I can manage.) as I begin the feel the wave approaching, i look for the doorway, the gateway. the rip in the fabric of time or whatever you want to call it.For me it almost always looks like a pool of water that I pass through before entering the new time line. Some time travelers had only out of body experiences (these people we call projectors) others of us (called wave riders) physically disappear from the current timeline. Early on in the project I would use a small electromagnetic tuner to help me concentrate and focus on the target, I no longer use any aid when waveriding.”
Interesting….the US Army again…
Timetraveler_0 have you ever heard of the “Waveriders”?
-pamela
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 01 January 2001 15:34
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Well it’s a good thing I got injured in the Army, or else that might have been my fate as well.
J.C.
P.S. I’m home… =)
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Curious unregistered posted 01 January 2001 17:31
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Pamela, what the Waverider is describing sounds a lot like the technique used by the Incunabula/Ong’s hat group. They supposedly had developed inter-dimentional travel. check out tis site: http://www.incunabula.org/
A lot of the info on the site seems to be disinfo, but then there are pieces of the truth mixed in. Here is another site with another point of view: http://it.t.boltpages.com/it.t/
Dimentional displacement requires less power and technology then temporal displacement.
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Time02112 Member posted 01 January 2001 17:36
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TT_0,
I appreciate your comments here, and I thought I would provide you with an example of just how appreciated you are.
(You’re sincerely welcome my Friend!…any”Time”
Below is a copy of a recent email from p3n:>
From: “Webmaster”
To:
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 17:34:13 -0800
Subject: Re: The “Z” Machine
Hi Gary,
I posted a link to the “Z” machine story yesterday, the second I saw it.
Thanks for sending the “Proclaimed” Time Traveler story. It was one of the best things that has come into P3N and with the help of links from other websites it has been one of the most visited pages. It was also very thought provoking. Please feel free to submit more writings or links to good stories when you find them.
Thanks again,
Rick Reed
Webmaster P3N
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Pamela, I am very familiar with this “Waverider” I listened to his info. on the former “Art Bell Show” known today, as the current “Coast To Coast AM” program.
since “Premier Radio Networks” purchased Art Bell’s Legacy for a sumisable amount. http://coasttocoastam.com
you can listen to pre-recorded programs, up to 30 days, in the “Past Shows” selection, on their website. Anything beyond 30 days, you will need to purchase a tape.
I believe that this “Waverider” information & faxes, are still available in text & jpg formats on the coast to coast website.
[This message has been edited by Time02112 (edited 01 January 2001).]
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Time02112 Member posted 01 January 2001 18:25
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TT_0
What could you surmise, as to what might happen, as a result if you provided us with copies of various news articles in relation to “Technology Reports” published a year in our future, or any “Time” after (Such as in your “Worldline” as you so describe?
*Could You?
*Would You?
And please explain your reasons for why you would, or would not do something like this for us?
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Fast Member posted 01 January 2001 18:59
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i think that when Art Bell retired(unknown reason..) he said that the Wave Rider was not real,it was just some guy messing around.he told that to the sheriff in his town,or something similar..
i could be mistaken..
Fast Out
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 01 January 2001 20:38
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I see that I have returned just in time. The concept of Time Travel has overwhelmed some with the idea of accepting it, and going along with it. Have you all forgotten that Time Travel is a means of controlling who we are. For a future collective agenda. My site is updated, check it out.
-INDIVIDUALS OPPOSED TO TEMPORAL MANIPULATION-
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/9822/
J.C.
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Pamela Member posted 01 January 2001 23:24
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Curious,
thankyou for providing the links to Ong’s hat they are very interesting.I will be looking at it more indepth.
Time 02112,
boy, the “z” machine story got around pretty quick!
Fast,
If Art Bell has admitted to the time traveler being fake why are the stories still posted on his site? Knowing Art Bells
character I think he would have written a follow up letter on it or pulled all the faxes from the site.
It still does not mean the faxes are legitimate however.
one thing I have been noticing though is some of the predictions were not acurate. A time traveler from another worldline can really only testify to what he has seen on his worldline. but now I am beginning to wonder….how many timetravelers are out there? how many are on this worldline at any given time? how many times can you alter events before something happens?
a lot of what waverider spoke on in his final faxes sounds a lot like timetraveler_0’s testimony. I know TTO is going to be really interested in reading waveriders faxes. perhaps he may be able to relate to some of the language written.
sincerely,
pamela
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Trott Member posted 02 January 2001 12:46
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Timetravel Activist,
If you believe in the multi-universe interpretation of quantum mechanics than everything with a non-zero possibility plays out. Therefore, I do not see how one could say that your future or history is being changed since one possibility, if time travel is possible, is for your future to be changed. Of course in an alternate universe, you would still be whatever it is that you thing has been changed about you.
If time travel ever becomes more than just theory, it would mark the greatest scientific moment in all history. Surely, you must agree with that.
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Trott Member posted 02 January 2001 12:57
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Mr. O,
You said that there were 7 other time travellers that you knew of who were on various missions from 2036 on your timeline. I am curious have people in 2036 been visited by people from further in the future? One would think that once time travel was possible and widely known that visitors from other time frames would be more likely to be visible and willing to be upfront about their visitation to the period after time travel, A.T.T (after time travel).
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Fast Member posted 02 January 2001 01:27
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pamela,
it is no longer HIS website…at least i think so.
the last time i checked in was when his page was redirected to CoasttoCoastAM.com.
i think i first got intrested into gibb’s work after hearing him on the Art Bell show..
but i remember an interview or something where a friend of his or a sheriff said that the wave rider was a nice story,but it wasnt real.i think thats right.
Fast Out
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 02 January 2001 01:53
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Trott,
I see your brand new here, so I can understand if you don’t know the history of what I’ve said in past posts. Let me just say that yes Time Travel will be this worlds greatest technological breakthrough, when it becomes real (to this timeline that is).
However, unlike you who wishes to see this issue of Time Travel as a scientist in an objective manner.
I choose to see this issue on a human/moral level. Is it ethical to Time Travel? Is it right to change the past with the knowledge one knows now in the future?
You’ve all seen “Back to the Future 2” where Marty is in the future, and he attempts to take back with him an almanac to place sports bets in the past.
Well, you can see where the moral implication can put us in, if our curiosity to go back and do things in this manner will do to our society? If one person does it, others will want to too.
If others are getting genetically engineered, others will want to too. To keep up at least, since now the rich who can afford it, are this super eugenic species (with intelligence and looks). Will we say then “Survival of the Fittest?”
Where does that leave out normal hard working honest people? Apparently that no longer exists.
Therefore, as you can see, my only beef with Time Travel is that it can be abused. Sure it can benefit us, but I am an Activist trying to get the word out that it’s not just glamorous and wonderful as it may sound, and that we should all jump in the band-wagon with it.
Someone needs to look out for humanities best interest in preserving our way of life, and I’m willing to take on that responsibility. Who can say the same?
Sincerely,
J.C.
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Fast Member posted 02 January 2001 04:14
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every page in every book has 2 sides..
2 sides which are to be viewed and judged..
time travel is just another page in just another book…
Fast Out
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Roel van Houten Member posted 02 January 2001 16:32
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Hi everyone,
With all due respect, but the story about the “Waverider” sounds pretty ridiculous compared to the story that TimeTravel_0 provided us with.
I don’t think timetravel will exist for a couple of decades to come, maybe even centuries. But I strongly believe that timetravel will not be possible without the aid of a machine of somekind.
Nowadays people are said to be using 30% of their brainpower and although people have accomplished many great things, I don’t believe the remaining 70% is enough to travel through time. There are myths about monks and priests who were able to levitate by focussing their thoughts, but that’s nothing compared to timetravel.
Anyone?
Roel van Houten
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Pamela Member posted 02 January 2001 17:33
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Hi Roel Van Houten,
Is it still raining over there?
You forgot the weather report at the end!
I think time travel already exists.
One thing you have to remember that it doesnt really matter WHEN it was ever created but IF. because with a time machine you can travel to ANY time.
TTO has made me realize alot of different possibilities in time travel.Things I never thought of before I am now thinking on.
New ideas have sprung up. new pieces of the puzzle possibly found.
about the priests and monks…I think that would involve more the will, spirit, and amplified thoughts than just the brain alone.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the “Z” machine?
sincerely,
pamela
[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 02 January 2001).]
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Juanito Junior Member posted 02 January 2001 19:52
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I’m sorry but I don’t believe the Time Traveler is from the year 2036. Pamela u seem like a smart woman how can you believe that he is a time traveler where there is nothing that he says could prove that he is. You even beleived the guy who called the Art Bell show and it’s pretty sure that HE is a fake. The only thing that makes me think that Time Travel is possible was a incident that happened to me in 1995. It was a Saturday and I was living in Manhattan. I had to get up early to move the car from the meter.Standing in the corner of my block looking like he was waiting for the bus was a man that looked exactly like me.It really scared me. I saw him and he saw me. I just took off running (which I regret). Was that me from the future?? Or was that someone that just looked like me? I don’t know and I don’t think I ever will know
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Fast Member posted 02 January 2001 21:30
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Juanito,
TT_0 provided us with scanned government documents showing the components to a 2036 General Electric Time Machine..check out the other pages on this thread,and you’ll find the url to them…
FastWalker2
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Juanito Junior Member posted 02 January 2001 21:57
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You mean the photos of the paper that say 2036?? I could make those papers. I made birth certifcate and immigration papers that look more real then those papers. If u believe that those photos then I have a bridge to sell u in Brooklyn want to buy it is really cheap!!!!!
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Andera unregistered posted 03 January 2001 12:30
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can you tell again the link of that papers, which are you talking about, i wanna se it
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Pamela Member posted 03 January 2001 06:31
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Juanito-
hmmm, I don’t remember ever posting that I beleived the wave rider was true.
As for timetraveler_0 , I have not posted everything we have discussed.
I have not been able to find a flaw in any of his discussions so far.
he has really opened my understanding of time travel.Things I would have never thought of before.
I will have to say, In some of his thinking he is “ahead of this time.”
sincerely,
pamela
[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 03 January 2001).]
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Fast Member posted 03 January 2001 07:52
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Juanito,
when you have a seamless story that you came from 2036 in a General Electric Time machine and brought documents from the year 2036,then ill buy your bridge.
TT_0 could have said bloody NASA made the time machine,why did he choose General Electric?possibly because his story is true..?
and the documents are scanned,and look unedited.they also look photocopied.
so..
FastWalker2
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TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 03 January 2001 13:47
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I’ve been reading the last few postings with a bit of confusion. I see there is controversy over my “story” that is causing some people to ask themselves if they believe it or not.
For quite a while, I have been stating that not only do I not expect anyone to believe me, it’s irrelevant and in my opinion, quite dangerous. Belief implies that you accept what I say as true and real. Over the internet, this is impossible. In fact, I have stated before, there are many people in 2036 who do not believe in time travel.
As I stated before, I also think that unwavering belief is dangerous. One very disturbing thing I have noticed about your society in general is your blind acceptance of what you are told. Do you really think the news industry doesn’t have an agenda? Do you really think those hamburgers you stuff into your body are safe? Do you really think your government is telling you the truth? What proof do you have of any of that?
What I do want you to do is open your eyes to the events that happening around you that have nothing to do with me. Some of you have been reading for a while now about the war in 2015 and the breakthroughs in particle physics that would be coming soon. Doesn’t the CIA report on 2015 and news on the z-field compression at least support what I’ve been saying a little bit? I just saw another story today about the Russians moving Nuks into the Balkins to thwart any future expansion by NATO. I also haven’t heard anyone take me up on my “information experiment” on the IBM 5100 or check out the information I’ve given you about the UNIX failure in 2038. With all due respect… I find it hard to take some of you seriously.
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Andera unregistered posted 03 January 2001 15:51
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i have read all the 6 pages of this board, and i can see all is about the story of mister tt_0, i only can had 1 conclusion, its AMAZING; but just amazing, i mean the only thing we can do is belive or not, but cmon we are phisycs, we not belive, we KNOW, our knowledge is based on the brain, the belive is based on heart, its important belive in something but not be blind for this, i come to this board(whit another nick) a few months ago and you just talking about ways to travel in time, pure teorical phisics, but now this board seems like belive or not belive, love or not love the mister tt_0.
I am not against the m. tt_0, if he travel or not, for me is his problem, i mean the first time i read the m. tt_0 i think woao!!! a real time traveler!!, but a few seconds later, i was disapointed because i wanna be the man who make the time machine, i wanna be the first time traveler, and this guy come and said i travel in time, i was blue, but then i think may be i or we will be the builders of the time machine, but this only can hapen if we do phisycs, if we do teories, if we do experiments, ni mean, this cant hapen if we only are limited to belive and love or not belive and no love an “apparental time traveler”, or if we just talk about “its true or not the time traveler”.
In 6 pages of board you just talk about how will be the future, belive or not, our society is bad or not, cmon stop do this questions, the future we will see it in a few years, the society is so bad all of we know that, the war of 2015 will be (if be)for some valid reasons or not valid but we cant do anithing about that, or if we do it will be another line in time, so we never know if we do it or not.
So mi point is stop talk about “its true or not ” and lets think about “how can we do a time travel”. Just think, which one is the dream of all of us? and the chose betwen talk or think, belive or do it fact.
Sincerily andera
p.s. Answer me, i wanna know the comments of all of you
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TimeMaster 1a Member posted 03 January 2001 18:19
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TimeTravel_0:
It is not logical that you would post the papers and diagrams and picture accecpt to give credibility to your story. The reality is that you are useing this forum to post your very subject views. You and I both know you are not from the future.It is not that you will not, but you can not post any evidence to the contrary.
However you have done your homework and tell a good story. Useing the Karr black hole as the bases for your time travel drvice is very good, although it will not produce time travel as you claim.
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Curious unregistered posted 03 January 2001 19:07
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I think the point TT_0 was trying to make is wake up and look around. He really doesn’t care if we believe him or not. He is just giving us a wake up call. I don’t care if he can time travel or not. I am looking at the bigger picture. Him posting on this board is a small thing. So he can time travel or not. It’s not such a big deal. In a world of infinite possibilities, every thing is probable. And what I believe doesn’t effect this world at all, only me………..
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Shadow unregistered posted 03 January 2001 21:11
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TT_O
Its been a long time since anybody has had to worry about converting IBM legacy code into more modern language. I’m not sure even when the 5100 was made, I’m guessing the early to mid ’70s. The term geek hadn’t even been invented yet. Before 1980 only overworked men with bad hearts ever saw a computer. In short, the supply of 5100 experts is probably too thin to show up on this small board. So wadda we know?
Heck, Colonel Corsoe & Co. would have us believe that the IBM line was copied from a crashed alien sauser.
The 2038 date bug in Unix is no secret. It just runs out of bit space for holding larger date code numbers. I worried a whole lot about the Y2K bug. I got my butt fooled. I lost half of my net worth AND two years of work. Whoopie. LET the friggen thing blow up, maybe somebody ELSE will get a well needed lesson.
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Juanito Junior Member posted 03 January 2001 21:23
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I hope that you guys can see what I’m talking about. Look at the last post that Time traveler man posted. It’s the same B.S.
I wonder if he knows of someone in the future with the initals JLR as he is 2 years old (the same age as our alleged time traveler). All I want to know is a simple fact from the future (other then the wars) like after GW Bush who will be the next President?? I mean if CNN can try to predict why can’t our Time traveling friend.
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 03 January 2001 23:12
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Well, no post in this forum can be complete without having my 2 cents added to it =). As an Activist, I agree with some of what TimeTravel_0 has mentioned. I have also been trying to get people to open their eyes. I have a website for just that purpose.
Please check it out. www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/9822/
However, there is one thing I would like to know. TimeTravel_0 if in fact you have been to the future, what happens to JCS- ME =)? Am I deeply involved in this Time Travel project as well? What of the resistance?
Don’t want to brag, but I too have had very real dreams of Time Traveling to the future. Some would seem like days, but be only a matter of hours passed. Other times I have visions and transmissions from the future. That’s what one Dr. once said to me. I still experience these Time Distortions, or whatever they are. There pretty trippy.
Anyway’s, it would only be natural that this is happening to me for a reason. =) So what do you know, if you have been to the future?
And hey Juanito, I like your critical perspective. Not to critical, and not to gullible, =) I sure could use someone like you in my resistance.
Truly,
Javier C.
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Juanito Junior Member posted 03 January 2001 23:28
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Javier
Thanks, I try to keep things real. I believe that Time Travel is possible but I don’t think TT_0 is a time traveler.
Sure I will like to join your quest for the truth where do I sign up.
Pamela and the other beleivers do u guys honestly believe this guy. Or is it that u want to believe.
I believe in GOD because I want to believe but I never seen GOD.
There is a big difference!!!!!
Juanito
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Juanito Junior Member posted 03 January 2001 23:40
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BTW
Does anyone know how big an IBM 5100 is??
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DaViper unregistered posted 04 January 2001 04:41
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Wow!
This is some thread huh! The longest and most debated one I’ve ever seen on this board.
(I trust everyone had a Happy New Year for the true Millenium.)
And especially want to wish Pamela the best in her continuing pursuits for truth in the next Thousand years.
For rgrunt:
It appears I may have publicly judged you too harshly. And I hereby appologize for anything that came across as a personal attack. Your post above has opened the door to a world of dialog that we may indeed find a way to come together on. You are no longer the faceless, dogmatic spewer of antiquated rhetoric I once thought you to be. (It does seem that this “paradox” issue has taken conversation on this board into directions I never thought possible. But then… God is the ultimate paradox is He/She not?)
Please understand that when you say … “I do admit that the information I recieved came second hand so I trully cannot vouch for the accuracy.” …is something I suspected all along but can’t help myself when it comes to jumping on the particular type of dogma that it represents. No Personal offense was ever intended.
Please also understand that when you say I “…claims that creation is completely proven wrong ” …
… that I DO NOT claim THIS at all. I merely state (without CLAIMING anything at all) that the account of creation as is metaphorically described in the Book Of Genesis in The Bible, first version, is just that. A metaphor. Not a true depiction of actual history in the literal sense.
I’m not disclaiming the existence of God here, or the CONCEPT of Creation per se. Nor am I saying that in so denying, that I am therefore subscriptive to the A-Theistic point of view. On the contrary.
In the true sprit of Paradox, (which this thread’s topic is all about), I merely offer the easily verifiable evidence and duplicatable proof that such an occurance as the so-called Biblically depicted “great flood” is in itself a physically impossibility.
It would be a great leap of faith indeed for anyone to PRESUME from this statement that I in any way dispute the existence of God. But also be aware that while I do not refute His existence, I also do not accept it unconditionally. At least based on the words of one anthology that exists from the ancient days of Western European Mythology. Particularly since this Anthology to which I refer (The Bible) never existed in it’s present form until the late 15th Century when Guttenburg invented the printing press that brought all these previously unconnected “Books” together. And even then, after much language translation from various sources such as Hebrew, Islamic, Christian, etc.
To place scientific credibility in such a document would be folly on the “wishful thinkers” of the world to say the least.
This is not to say that the document does not have value as a representative example of the moralistic values in any society in folklore, (including our own), but it needs to be studied in the true context of what it is. A historical account of the world as THOSE WHO LIVED AT THAT TIME saw it. The moral lessons contained therin may indeed be timeless, but the science is purly from the point of view of the then ignorant. (No offense to them, they simply didn’t know any better.)
So ultimately Mr. Schasteen, please understand that from what I see in your last post, we may indeed not be that far apart on the moralistic or philosophistic level, but at the purely scientific level, well, as Einstein said, “God does not play Dice with the Universe.”
And He (if he truly exists), DID NOT flood the entire Earth 6000 years ago, nor did He “create” the Earth in a matter of what we call “six days”.
“He” MAY very well have “Created” it, and the rest of the Universe for that matter. I take no issue with this nor do I advocate the possibility either way. I’ll leave the possibility of these matters to the likes of Dr. Stephen Hawking and others of his ilk who can present logical arguments that support BOTH points of view far better than my humble ability to elaborate upon.
For specifics though, I’ve already provided links to a number of sites where raidiometric dating processes can be studied and understood (I’ll leave you to chase those down and do the same research I’ve already done), and hopefully leave you with the understanding that I also meant NO insult to you in any personal way.
After all, “rgrunt” and “DaViper” are just handles anyone can use to sign onto a BBS/Message board anywhere on the net and represent themselves to be anyone they wish to present themselves as.
In the end, it’s the words and what one has to say that matter here.
Actually, I thought it was a pretty good story. I’d say your fiction skills are coming along quite nicely.
juanito:
Bigger than your palm pilot, your laptop, your desktop and even bigger than an IBM 4300 series. But not as big as my grandfather’s old Buick Roadmaster.
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P.Light unregistered posted 04 January 2001 08:28
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To Juanito,
My friend i know where your coming from…
I’ve had a …erm…falling out with T-T-0 in the past as you have no doubt seen if you have read the past messages.
Let me say one thing, He knows what he’s talking about.
More than everyone else on this board i might add, aside from perhaps the moderators!!
Or else why would people be asking him so many questions about theories and things wev’e only dreamed about. Perhaps your right, perhaps he is only trying to open our eyes. But do you act on the information he has given us or do you dismiss it as pure fantasy? Open your eyes and think about what he has to say! I did and so did everyone else who post or even read this board
A sidenote… Rgrunt, what happened to your blackhole contraption?
Sincerly,
Light
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 04 January 2001 09:06
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Juanito,
I can’t say about the others, but your right. I asked him questions I already know the answers to. If he answers them correctly, then he is from the future.
He’s not the only one in this board who claims to have Time Traveled =).
Hey you and me lets stick together on this. There seems to be alot of team play action going on here. Alot of people watching each others backs, if you know what I mean.
Someone needs to set them stright . Well talk to you all later.
Truly,
Javier C.
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Hello unregistered posted 04 January 2001 12:12
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The government would have pulled those diagrams off of the web page they are on if they really believed timetraveler_0.
timetraveler_0 would have been traced and located, spied on and eventually his device stolen from the basement.
yep, happened to someone else I knew.
they even posed as the person for awhile.
you never know who you are talking to on the internet.he is right about that.
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 04 January 2001 13:49
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That’s true, even I’m being watched, and I haven’t even posted anything of a national security nature .
-J.C.
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Roel van Houten Member posted 04 January 2001 15:49
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Hi everyone,
Pamela, to respond to your previous post:
yes, we’ve had some snow over here, but it’s raining cats and dogs again as usual..
From our point of view, lets just say “this worldline”, timetravel does not yet exist. To put it in other words: timetravel will (probably) exist in the future, but assuming time goes by in chronological order it does not exist yet.
If we take a “non-linear” approach to time, timetravel does indeed already exist. It all just depends on the way you look at things. I guess we’re both right in this case.
As for Timetravel_0. I’m very sceptic about the story he has provided us with. But it remains an interesting story nonetheless. It doesn’t matter whether we believe it or not. At least he’s caused a 6 page thread and he made people think about certain aspects of modern society. It’s only logical that someone from the future has no gain in proving that he really is a timetraveler.
So lets just stick to the subject of timetravel instead of proving or disproving the story of Timetravel_0.
As for Juanito and TimeTravelActivist. Listen very carefully, I shall only say this once Perhaps it’s a good idea to start a new thread called “The Resistance” or something similar. That would be a great opportunity to discuss the “danger” of timetravel and recruit new members.
Greetings from rainy Amsterdam, it feels like I’m freezing yet the water that falls from the sky does not :-))
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Trott Member posted 04 January 2001 17:31
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The thing that I picked up from Mr. TT_0’s recent post is that he seemed to be saying that time travel is not something you believe in or disbelieve. That is not how things work, you must discover and experiment not just take in what others may say. If people just sat around saying I believe it is possible to fly and never went out and tested it then we would never have made aviation possible. Likewise, we can neither definitively accept or deny TT_O’s claim of being an actual time traveller until physical and hence experimental proof of time travel is obtained.
My past inquiries of TT_O were merely for my curiousity. I have never accepted or denied his claim. Although, I must admit the easiest and most uncomplicated solution would be that he is not. As far as that wave rider person, his statements on the fax are contrary to our historical line and hence I do not buy his story. I personally do not see how time travel could be possible just using the physical body and mind anyway.
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Fast Member posted 04 January 2001 19:38
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thats why you work FOR the government…
so they cant steal your work because it is funded by THEM..
there work is usually less fringe science and more proven stuff,and they dont allow errors(error is a kind and benevolent god of inventors..jk)
TT_0,
in the 2036,do they still publish books?
if so,do they still have those Cliff Notes books?the yellow ones,about things like physics and geometry and common time displacement theory and such?
hint hint…
is the government regulating the time machine you used to get here,or are you free to do as you choose?
TimeTravelActivist, why does everyone of your posts have to include something about IOTM??
FastWalker2
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 04 January 2001 22:38
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Roel van Houten,
You must be new here… Or else you would know.
I have started threads for the purpose of recruiting members into my campaign, how you mentioned I should. Some have gone to 7 pages as well… Might want to look them up.
In addition, to FastWalker2.
I only mentioned my website twice. What are you talking about me mentioning it every time I post? Count them…
Gotta go buy food for my cat , c-ya.
-J.C.
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 05 January 2001 09:15
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TimeTravel_0,
So do you plan on keep avoid answering my questions? You been awfully quiet since I’ve returned… Time Traveling must keep you very busy huh.
-J.C.
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Rgrunt unregistered posted 05 January 2001 10:53
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Dear Deviper,
No offence taken I appreciate the posting for it taught me a good lesson not to post something that I can not readily anylize with my own senses. I will look up the information and if I find anything that supports either side I will post it at a later date. I will not endorce it til I have done the experiments myself though to ensure accuracy. I also have a great deal of respect for you in that you seem to be a man that truely seeks for the truth and are carefull to accept only the truth. The bible does say that those who seek the truth shall find it so I wish you success in your endeavors to sift out the truth of things and hope you to have a happy new year.
sincerely,
Edwin G. Schasteen
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Rgrunt unregistered posted 05 January 2001 13:19
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Dear P-Light,
I appologize for the delay. I am now teaching myself geometry and calculas for I did not have the opportunity to learn these forms of math in high school. I was lucky to get a chance to learn algebra. After I have finished teaching myself these subjects I believe that I will have the knowlege to convert the theory behind the black hole device into a mathematical statement using calculas. Graphic proofs are great but all of the physics journals I have read are written using calculas to represent mathematically whatever measurement is being discussed in that particular journal. As for the device itself in light of my lack of education I went ahead and contracted it’s development to a research and development firm by the name of Davison and Associates. The device is to be a generator for sale. But the generator operates on the same theory in that increase in electrical current and voltage is obtained by constricting a parallel probagating e and h field to a smaller given space. I am not aware of whether compressing and electric field or an electric field will power output of a generator but I know that focusing a magnetic field to a smaller area increases the strength of the field in that area like sunlight focused through a convex lense. And I believe one way to increase the electrical output of a generator is to increase the field strength of the magnets being used to generate the electricity. So I cannot see why the device will no produce higher electrical voltages at higher amperage. (all parts are powered by dc current)If one tries to focus a magnetic field that is generated by an alternating current the field will decrease in amperage as the field is constricted on acount that the frequency of the field is increased as the field is twisted up. Imagine a spring, if you will, and let each revolution in the helixical spring determine the frequency. If you twist the sring in the one direction the distance between the spring crests and troughs will decrease as the spring is tightened thus increasing the frequency of the spring. As a ac current frequency increases the ac output decreases. I imagine that dc is different. I could be wrong in my interpritation of the ac theorum I just stated.
sincerely,
Edwin G. Schasteen
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TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 05 January 2001 13:46
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In 2036, community life is a bit different. People are valued and judged based on their contribution and worth. Work is organized around the family and the value of that work is assessed inside of the community. Most communities range in size from 1000 to 4000 people. If a family wanted to move from one community to another or if a son or daughter wanted to move to another community, they must apply and be interviewed by the community leadership council. During this process, the family or individual is evaluated as to whether or not the work or skill they have is required or necessary to that individual community. Once accepted, the family or individual is expected to uphold their end of the work and support the community. If they don’t, the community stops supporting them and they are forced to change their attitude or move away from the community.
The family work we did was picking, sorting and shipping oranges by sailboat up and down the coast of Florida. We were expected to produce a certain amount for the community and a certain amount for other communities as agreed to by our CLC. In exchange, we received power, water, a certain amount of food and other necessities that were produced inside our community.
I see this message board as a small community and I have no other way to value the contributions of others on it other than what my past experiences tell me. I have tried to answer as many questions as I can without being annoying, repetitive or inappropriate… and for some of you entertaining. Under these conditions, I have decided to seek guidance from all of you, the other members of this community, as to whether or not my postings are of any value to the direction of these discussions. If they are getting distracting or repetitive, I will stop and continue to enjoy reading your thoughts and ideas.
((Who receives the Nobel Prize for inventing time travel? Surely, since there is a divergence from your time line such information would be of no consequence to divulge.))
There are a great many people involved with the discovery of time travel. Just as I will not give “stock tips”, I will not divulge their names as that may impact their lives now.
((Timetraveler_0 have you ever heard of the “Waveriders”?))
No, I can’t say that I have although I am in no position to say if it’s true or not.
((What could you surmise, as to what might happen, as a result if you provided us with copies of various news articles in relation to “Technology Reports” published a year in our future, or any “Time” after (Such as in your “Worldline” as you so describe?))
If I had any and I published them, I’m sure they may have a large impact. Unfortunately, I don’t have any with me. Even if I did, I’m sure they would be scrutinized also. Again we get back to the same question. If you were a time traveler, what would you do to establish your credibility?
((You said that there were 7 other time travellers that you knew of who were on various missions from 2036 on your timeline. I am curious have people in 2036 been visited by people from further in the future? One would think that once time travel was possible and widely known that visitors from other time frames would be more likely to be visible and willing to be upfront about their visitation to the period after time travel, A.T.T (after time travel)).
No, I am not aware of time travelers visiting my worldline in 2036. However, that does not mean it can’t or isn’t happening. Also, the possible number of worldlines a time traveler might arrive at would place the chances of them hitting any particular one at very long odds.
((However, there is one thing I would like to know. TimeTravel_0 if in fact you have been to the future, what happens to JCS- ME =)? Am I deeply involved in this Time Travel project as well? What of the resistance?))
I have no idea what happens to you in your future. There was a resistance on my worldline but their goal was to maintain power and control over other people. We killed most of them by 2020.
(Does anyone know how big an IBM 5100 is??)
I would say its about 20” long, 10” high and 30” long.
((I’ve had a …erm…falling out with T-T-0 in the past as you have no doubt seen if you have read the past messages.))
I’m not aware we had a falling out. I apologize if you think that’s the case.
((in the 2036,do they still publish books? if so,do they still have those Cliff Notes books? the yellow ones,about things like physics and geometry and common time displacement theory and such? hint hint… ))
Yes, books are still published. If I had any cliff notes with me I would let you decide if they should be posted or not.
((is the government regulating the time machine you used to get here, or are you free to do as you choose?))
The displacement machine is not mine but I am free to make certain decisions based on the experiences and information I gather from each worldline. I am expected back but from their perspective, I will only have been gone for a split second.
((So do you plan on keep avoid answering my questions? You been awfully quiet since I’ve returned… Time Traveling must keep you very busy huh.))
I’m not sure what questions you are referring to. You did ask one question about yourself, right below the link to your website. I am confused why you would think I would know anything about you.
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DaViper unregistered posted 05 January 2001 15:24
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Thank you rgrunt. Peace and success to you likewise.
trott:
Well said.
I think sometimes poeple confuse “open minded” with “gullible”.
Open minded is when you are ready (open) to recieve any information that can be enlightening or even just plain subjective to you. In this, all things are possible.
Except…
Being gullible. This is when you unquestioningly accept something just because someone else says so. One has to do one’s own homework to get to real truth.
Gullibility then deteriorates into the worse condition of all. Self imposed ignorance. This is where one accepts as true, that which has ALREADY BEEN PROVEN to not be so. Or continues to believe that something is NOT so when it has been proven to be true. Those who still believe the world is flat fall into this last category. And they are STILL out there.
Maybe TT_O IS a Time Traveller. But his reluctance to offer any proof of such damages his credibility. Saying he “doesn’t care” whether he is believed or not is really nothing more than a cop out. And allows him to side-step the issue of proof.
I cannot say for sure whether Time Travel is, or ever WILL be possible. I simply don’t know. But I have a certain amount of confidence that TT_O is NOT one.
His story IS creative. But the physics just don’t add up.
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 05 January 2001 15:39
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Well that was a pretty interesting picture of the future you painted for us TimeTravel_0. Although, that is just 1 version of events. And your complete disregard of your Time Line will cease to exist now. Telling us this, will without a doubt change all that you described.
If in fact it’s true hehe.
Personally, I know already that life will turn into one big collective in the future. Hence my resistance…
Individuality as people in the way we lead our lives, is no longer our choice. Then you know that my resistance will fight for the freedom to destroy oppression.
Further more, my identity in the future would most likely be changed … Nevertheless, if you have been to the future, you know who I am.
No doubt about that…
-J.C.
[This message has been edited by TimeTravelActivist (edited 05 January 2001).]
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 05 January 2001 15:40
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(No Post)…
[This message has been edited by TimeTravelActivist (edited 05 January 2001).]
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Observer unregistered posted 05 January 2001 19:44
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TTO-
we enjoy reading your posts very much.please continue. we enjoy your contributions. You are obviously a very important part of this small “internet community”.
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timetravel_1 unregistered posted 06 January 2001 12:45
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TT_0:
I belive you, i dont know why but i belive you, but i think the other guys need a real clue for belive you, so, i think you can take a photo of your clothes and post it, or your credencial, because if you work for the goberment, you need to had a credential of the gob in the future, and of curse you need to have clothes from the future, or you travel nude?
And what about the social system in the future, its so like socialism, only there one thing wrong, on socialism theres no religion, so please tell me, in the future the church stop to steal money, and manipulate people, or how works the structure of the church in the future?
I had just another question, what happen in the future whit mexico and the latinamericans.
Atte: a fan of you, TT_1.
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Juanito Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 16:02
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TT_0
There is an expression that is used here in this “time”.
Shit or get off the pot.
Just start naming historical figures in your “time” or stop saying that you are a time traveler
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 06 January 2001 16:33
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Well, what do we have here ? There seems to be some Latino homiez in da house here… I’m part Hispanic too bro’s.
Hey, listen up… As a Time Traveler to the future my self, I have seen the uniforms. I have even put one on. Therefore, if TimeTraveler_0 can offer us a picture of his uniform as proof, I will verify it’s legitimacy with the one I wore.
However, I wouldn’t count on you actually telling us the truth… I know people, and I can sense when they are telling the truth, and when they are lying.
Isn’t that right people? (Those of you who know me, when have I ever been wrong about people?). I told you so, so many times .
Anyway’s, if you can get this picture and I know you can’t. I would like to establish a real-time chat. We will invite 3 or 5 members to represent each side.
Your side, claiming to have Time Traveled and making a big public notice about it. And me, who will set the record straight and who will verify your story. Let me just let you know right now; this won’t be an easy chat for you. There will be no more posts where you can think of what to say and take your time with.
You will be caught in lies either by me, or my side of members.
So, are you up to the challenge? Answer A.S.A.P. by Go or No-Go. However, if your answer is No-Go, please supply a statement saying why.
Got to go for now.
-J.C.
[This message has been edited by TimeTravelActivist (edited 06 January 2001).]
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Juanito Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 16:38
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Javier
If you are really a time travler how is the President after GW Bush?
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timetravel_1 unregistered posted 06 January 2001 17:31
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TimetravelActivist:
I’ll go
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Shadow unregistered posted 06 January 2001 19:12
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To Timetravel Activist;
you’ve been here longer than TT_O and we are still waiting for YOU to prove that you have ever been to the future. I’m going to the future too, one day at a time. When I get there, I’ll STILL be waiting for you to prove it.
Here is a little test for you. What is your opinion of the Montauk material?
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 06 January 2001 19:22
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timetravel_1 whom’s side will you be arguing for?
Anyone else?
Juanito, I am not a Time Traveler like TimeTraveler_0 claims to be. I didn’t get into any machine from the future or anything like that.
No, my connection to Time and its nature is unique. I’ve had it since birth. There is no way to truly explain how I know or seen the future. Nevertheless, everyday I’m finding out new things .
And about GW Bush, I don’t know what to tell you. Although I have an uncle that looks like him .
-J.C.
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Juanito Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 19:31
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J.C.
Can u predict my future??
Why is the government watching you??
Juanito
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 06 January 2001 19:39
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Shadow,
Have I never explained my self?
Thousands of times, and in the best way I know how.
How many times have I said that the future is a @$#%!* place?
How many times have I said to band Time Travel?
Have you ever seen my website?
It’s been there for the longest time, explaining how I feel about Time Travel, and what we as concerned people should do.
I don’t need to say I am a Time Traveler like TimeTraveler_0 to tell you what I have seen. In addition, I don’t claim to have been from the future how TimeTraveler_0 states he is. I have explained that I have this connection to it, enabling me to see things.
Check my past posts and my website, I don’t speak of it directly like TimeTraveler_0 did, but you get the general idea of what I am trying to mean.
Here it is again http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/9822/ also read the information about me page.
Sincerely,
Javier C.
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Time02112 Member posted 06 January 2001 19:51
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TT_0 thanks for the reply RE: sharing future technological reports, or publications…
You have expressed an inability to provide them now, for lack of having any with you, before you arrived in our “Worldline”
Could you please make a note, to remind yourself to bring them with you on your “Next Visit” here?
(Providing there will be another “Visit”)
Meanwhile, why not use your memory to paint us a more “Specific” picture of your worldline, by providing us with some more “Detailed” information that would provide to those who may be more skeptical? in the least by accepting this challange (instead of avoiding it) what harm would it possibly bring? if you keep out any information that may not be acceptably permissable in order to prevent any clandestine repercussions of the future outcome of a series of events which are crucial to our future to come, so that they may play out their roles, as they were intended, I can only see that there are still many variable details that you “CAN” Disclose to us that would not be this detrimental, and only “Add” to your Credability.
One good example of such, I would like to ask you to disclose the names of these “Five Presidents” that you mentioned earlier.
*Who:> Who are they? and who are those involved with breathing life into this supposed NWO, that many people in our current world-line are so afraid of?
*What:> A.)What are their primary, and post secondary functions within the New GVT?
B.) What is the extent of their Authoritive positions of power?
C.) What is our New GVT like, compared to our worldline’s current GVT?
(is it anything Like the Dreded NWO as predicted?, or did this dictatorial NWO rise to power as prohecised, and suddenly get defeated?*(was this what you implyed by your earlier comment represented by the nuber of those slain, that attempted to “control” the free citizens?)
*Where:> Where do they reside?
*When:> When do each of them officialy acquire their respective positions of Authority?
Why:> Why did the New GVT suddenly enlist five Presidents?
(Anyone else care to jump on this & add more questions pertaing?)
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Juanito Junior Member posted 06 January 2001 19:51
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JC
Why is the gov’t after u??
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 06 January 2001 19:56
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Juanito,
Slow down high speed … I don’t know your future; it’s what you want it to be. If you are determined to do something with your life, then you will do it.
How I am determined to do something about Time Travel someday, I know what will be my fate.
Nevertheless, if your looking for a fortune forecast, I’m not the right person to see about that. Maybe not now anyway’s .
-J.C.
P.S. How I know I am being watched? You asked me in an e-mail. Let me just say that if you were to spend a day in my shoes you’d see what I mean. I can’t explain it, you have to experience it. A teacup cannot break the same way twice, or so I once thought.
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Trott Member posted 06 January 2001 23:49
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Assuming time travel is possible. I do not see how one could band it from being used. In fact, how would one even know that it was used? If you buy into the multiple universe intrepretation of quantum mechanics, would not the time traveller simply pop out of existence in our universe never to be seen again? How would it be possible to band time travel in the infinite multitude of parallel universes, since each universe represents one of an infinite albeit different sequence of events/choices? To “fight” against the infinite diversity of existence in all of its infinite combinitations does not seem logical (at least to me that is). And if you do not buy the multiverse idea, then if time travel is to be used it can not be stopped since time travel would only be possible on closed time like curves, i.e. self-fulfilling destinies in a manner of speaking. Personally, I do not even see how it is possible for one to realize that they were in a closed timelike loop much less escape it. For all things would be as they were as they are and as they will be. Actually, a lack of multiple universes seems a little depressing to me. It seems it would imply an unchangeable fate, for whatever actions we take we were destined to and no matter what technologies we may think up would be able to erase the mistakes of our past or change the past course of our existence. And if that is in fact the case, the only real benefit time travel would have is for scientific and historical purposes. Unless, you were killed by a time traveller from the future but if that happens you need not worry because it was suppose to happen!
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Lara unregistered posted 07 January 2001 01:15
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I like your thinking Trott.
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DaViper unregistered posted 07 January 2001 07:06
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I also like your thinking trott. The idea of “banning” Time Travel has already been dealt with in fiction. I can’t remember the author, but it appeared in one of the Hugo Annual Anthologies.
The premise is, if you have a machine that can travel in time, you can just as easily use it to simply “see” into the future (or past) without having to actually travel there.
You can set it to whatever period you like. 1 million years from now. Or 100. Or even 1/10th of a second from now.
Why would you choose this latter setting? Why, to see into your neighboor’s bedroom of course. 1/10th of a second into the future is virtually like being there now.
This is why it was banned.
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Fast Member posted 07 January 2001 13:14
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DaViper,
i wasnt aware that time travel had been banned..
Trott,
if they wanted to ban time travel,”they” could kill you off when you returned..
TTA,
i remember some time ago on the artbell show,some woman claimed to be a “born time traveler”.She said she would occasionally slip in and out of other time lines.she said she always returned to where she left off in our time.
is this the way it is with you?
FastWalker2
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Roel van Houten Member posted 07 January 2001 16:02
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Hi people,
I agree with Trott here… Banning time-travel (if time-travel is possible in the first place) seems virtually impossible.
However I find it very disturbing that people would want to ban time-travel. That’s like trying to stop the invention of computertechnology. Time-travel may prove to be very useful in the future.
TimeTravelActivist: You are right, I haven’t been around long enough to know what you’re all about. However, after reading your website I decided that your story is just as trustworthy as Timetravel_0s’story, but it lacks evidence. Yet you want him to prove that he’s a timetraveler. Don’t you think that’s a little bit unfair?
Greetings from rainy Amsterdam
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TimeTravelActivist Member posted 07 January 2001 17:20
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Roel van Houten
How is it unfair? He says he can prove it, he has the evidence necessary to.
What do I have? Just my own experiences as proof. If anything, it’s unfair to me. I have nothing to bring out in the open.
Fast,
I’d like to hear this news broadcast. Sounds like something I might be experiencing. Once when I was 7, I told my sister, Abraham Lincoln wasn’t supposed to have been killed. Ever since then, she still thinks I’m a bit crazy . Go fig…
-J.C.
P.S. Baning Time Travel to exploit the past is what I meant. You people took me to literal, everybody knows that that’s what I always mean by baning it …
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Fast Member posted 07 January 2001 21:36
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TTA,
she said that she had woken up in other times,and came back with bruises that she didnt know where she got..
ever since Art Bell quit the show,they’ve stopped holding his Streamed Audio Shows,so you’ll probably have to look around..or call Art.
FastWalker2
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P.Light unregistered posted 07 January 2001 23:53
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To T-T-A
Im in though i will have to decide “For” or “Against” i shall message you when i have an answer.
Sidenote No.2—–Gullible or Open minded?
Makeing a long story short:— OPEN MINDED
(Take in the information given,opinions of others,your own opinion, throw in a few theories, Quotes and more information, and go from there!) Naturally there is more to that but the basics are there. Its all about the scientifics. Who would have thought that we could clone animals? Whats to stop us Cloning people?(As you may have heard)
For a year or two I have started to pay attention to a phenomenon that most people including myself had noticed but taken for granted. The phenomenon is that some days appear to be longer then others. I cannot count the number of times that I felt it was 5:30 pm in the afternoon then go to check the clock and notice that it is only 2:00 pm, merely an hour after I had last checked. Also, I cannot count the number of times that I have thought that it was 2:00 pm in the afternoon and go to check the clock only to find out that it is 5:30 pm. One or two years ago I began to suspect that time itself was indeed fluctuating. So on days that felt longer I asked others if the day was going by fast to them. To my surprize the answer was unanimous. Everyone also felt that the day was going by slower then usual, too. I was looking at an astronomy book last week and noted that space-time is expanding. At the begining of the universe the temperatures of the universe was extremely high and decreased as space expanded. Now I questioned whether there would be any difference if the actual size of the universe were getting bigger as the universe expanded keeping space uniform in density or whether the size of the uniform were fixed and the addition of new space-time resulted in an everincreasing space-time density. I reasoned that the results would be the same for energy occupies space. If the quantity of energy is kept constant and more and more space is crammed into the quantity energy ones first intuition is to assume that the energy per unit volume will increase as a result of the increased compression of space. But this is wrong in fact the energy per unit volume will decrease as a result of compressed space. The reason is that when one compresses a greater quantity of space-time into a constant quantity of energy the energy occupies a greater volume of space. As energy occupies more space the density of the energy decreases as a result of expansion of the energy which is defined as energy occupying greater volumes of space. Now If mass occupies a greater quantity of energy: the energy(that is not mass) will expand and decrease in density. Also energy is generated by friction as the mass is crushed to a smaller volume. This extra energy is neglected in the former statement in that it is the free energy in the form of heat/light that we are interested in not the energy created by the crushing of the mass nor the energy added by the exertion of kenetic force to crush the mass to a smaller volume. As mass increases the energy expands. As energy increases mass expands decreasing in density which is the principle behind the function of hot air baloons. As space increases exponentially and as the number of points increases exponentially the density of space is increased. As the density of space is increased the temperature of space is decreased as the constant thermal energy constant occupies more space. If space increased from all pionts no energy will be created by friction since no space is forced to move into tighter quantities on acount that the number of points is increased symetrically to the increase in volume of space. Now as energy is increased per unit volume time becomes accelerated for that volume as is manifested in a heated object as the molecules of a heated object is sped up relative molecules in cooler masses outside that object.
I noticed last week that time was dragging nearly taking up nearly twice the time then normal for a given day. I also noticed that it was sunny and the humidity level was low and thermal properties high. Today is monday and I and the rest of the people I worked with noticed that the day went by dramatically faster then normal…taking up nearly a quarter the time for a day then any given day last week took. I also noticed that there was a large increase in humidity and it even rained today harder then it had in the whole year. As temperature within water decreases within water the molecules slow down and time also slows down for that object on acount that time is a measurement of a number of events accurring per given instant multiplied by the velocity of those events squared. (If those events have a velocity of light) and the number of events accuring per given instant multiplied by the velocity of events.(if the velocity is subluminal) I could be wrong in that time may be the number of events times the square of the velocity regardless of the velocity with respect to the velocity of light.) So as water increased in the atmosphere the energy perunit volume expanded by occupying the water molecules in our area resulting in a decrease in the velocity at which time traveled within our given region which is why my day went much faster today.
sincerely,
Edwin G. Schasteen
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WntUlikeToknow unregistered posted 08 January 2001 23:12
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E.G.S
Do you realize that the english language lies mortally wounded at the feet of your previous two posts?
Care to elaborate any further info on the “Other” Time~Travelers from “Your” World-Line”???
*What are the other TT’s worldline destinations, and missions?
*Are any of them, besides yourself, on our current worldline that you are aware of?
*Are you in contact by some special means with any other TT’s? (if so, How is this done?)
*How is it possible to send a message through Time?
(Please Review my earlier Questions)
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TimeTravel_0 unregistered posted 09 January 2001 09:28
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((Could you please make a note, to remind yourself to bring them with you on your “Next Visit” here?))
I will not be returning to this worldline.
((Meanwhile, why not use your memory to paint us a more “Specific” picture of your worldline, by providing us with some more “Detailed” information that would provide to those who may be more skeptical?))
I think skepticism is a good thing and no one should lose it.
((by accepting this challange (instead of avoiding it) what harm would it possibly bring?))
I’m not sure what “challenge” you are referring to. If you mean the live chat, I have no problem with that. I do that quite often on other boards. However, I fear I have very few bread and circuses left and I fear I am becoming quite boring. Also, I’m not sure I fully understand the nature of the challenge.
http://communities.msn.com/THETIMETRAVELCOMMUNITY
((if you keep out any information that may not be acceptably permissable in order to prevent any clandestine repercussions of the future outcome of a series of events which are crucial to our future to come, so that they may play out their roles, as they were intended, I can only see that there are still many variable details that you “CAN” Disclose to us that would not be this detrimental, and only “Add” to your Credability. ))
Again, I do not seek to add to my credibility. There is no point to it. Actually, by providing information that was usefull, I would be adding to your collective fear that I am real. In that case, this cycle we are in concerning “truth” only spirals and gets worse.
((One good example of such, I would like to ask you to disclose the names of these “Five Presidents” that you mentioned earlier.))
Over the past few postings, I have tried to describe the limits of what I will talk about and why. Here is a short recap list. In future postings, I will place the following number next to each question as to why I will not discuss it.
I will not disclose any information that will cause someone to personally gain by its knowledge. This means no stock or sports tips.
I will not disclose any detailed information that would allow someone to avoid death by probability. This means no earthquake or bombing information.
I will not disclose any information that may compromise any future actions by individual people or threaten their family and well being.
((*Who:> Who are they?…)) ——— 3
((…and who are those involved with breathing life into this supposed NWO, that many people in our current world-line are so afraid of?))
On my worldline, we are no longer afraid of the “NWO”. Are you afraid of Nazis?
((*What:> A.)What are their primary, and post secondary functions within the New GVT?))
The reason the job of President was split into an office of 5 has 4 main reasons. With 5, foreign policy is more consistent, power shifting between parties has less of an impact on the overall government, individual strengths between presidents add to the strength of the overall office, and one president is elected for each major area in the United States.
((B.) What is the extent of their Authoritive positions of power?))
The office of President is far more diluted and decentralized than it is here. The powers of the national government are more defined and reside more at the county and state level.
((C.) What is our New GVT like, compared to our worldline’s current GVT?))
I think the new government is good. However, since the concept of nationally subsidized welfare is gone, most people here may not appreciate it.
((*Where:> Where do they reside?))
The new US capitol is in Omaha Nebraska.
((*When:> When do each of them officialy acquire their respective positions of Authority?))
The voting for individual candidates is on a rotating schedule.
((*What are the other TT’s worldline destinations, and missions?))
I am not aware of the details of other missions. Of the seven, three had already left before I did. I suspect they are on similar missions.
((*Are any of them, besides yourself, on our current worldline that you are aware of?))
No, the chances of that are very slim.
((*Are you in contact by some special means with any other TT’s? (if so, How is this done?))
No, although I would suspect that is not impossible I have no idea how you would do that.
((*How is it possible to send a message through Time?))
Unless the information physically travels with the person, not that I’m aware of.
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Rgrunt unregistered posted 09 January 2001 11:01
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I appologize,
I meant to say that time was accelerated and the energy per unit volume lower at our respective position as a result of the increased density of air as a result of increased humidity. I donnot mean to say that time actually slows down but sequence of events are accelerated outside the reqion of higher humidity with respect to those events within the region of higher humidity as a result of the area of higher humidity having a lower energy density then the region of lower humidity. This is indeed counter intuitive and requires a unique perspective of the model to totally understand. Most scientist would agree that higher energy densities occupy masses of higher density. This is because the masses of higher density will have atoms with more electrons and protons enabling higher angles of energy deflection within the mass prolonging the period of time required for the free propagation energies to permiate through the solid medium. When I speak of eneries I am refering to the electro-magnetic spectrum. I would like to appologize for butchering the english language in my last two postings, but I was on a timer and did not have time to hit the ‘spell check’ button. In short, I really do wander if there is a sort of time dialation within the atmosphere caused by the fluctuating levels of temperature and humidity. Can anyone coment? I was also realizing that by compressing energy to a smaller volume of space that space would likewise expand taking on lesser density even without having to stretch at all. This would mean that the total volume density of a volume of space is defined mathematically as S=1/e^2 where S is the density of space and e is the density of energy. (a side note to Plight: this is part of the mathematical model for the device in that as the radius of the magnetic field decreases to zero at 180 degrees torque: the energy density of the field increases to infinity as the space-time density decreases to zero. Beyond 180 degrees torque the energy density of space space-time aquires a negative density according to the equation S=1/e^2 where e^2 rises above infinity(infinity not being true infinity but a convenient label for the unknown limit value of e^2.)and the corresponding S value takes on a negative value.
sincerely,
Edwin G. Schasteen
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Ninth of multiple Posts
This post is the ninth of a series of posts related to John Titor.
Conclusion
Our reality is not what we think it is. I am not the only person who has disclosed that there are others, and other organizations that can enter and leave our reality at will. Another person who made this claim went by the name John Titor.
Only where as, I claim to be part of MAJestic and was employed as part of human sentience management, John Titor claimed to be a person who was part of another world-line. Together, we both claim that the MWI is real, and we utilize it to perform dimensional egress for our own purposes.
I claim that it is a tool that is used to manage human sentience evolution.
John Titor claims that he utilized the time variable to conduct acquisition activities in the past.
He claimed that on that world-line, the United States was fundamentally different after a rapid series of events in the late 1990’s. He claimed that he needed to perform some acquisition of certain technical devices through the use of the time-variance option in dimensional travel.
Most people has dismissed him as a hoax. However, if you add ten years to every date that he provided, you can well see that he has accurately predicted the events that we are experiencing today.
While there are many things that came true that I find difficult to believe that anyone would be aware of on 1998, one of two stand out in my mind.
The first is that he “liked to watch segments of movies”. This is something that you can do on Tiktok and no where else. Not even on you-tube.
The second is that described a United States in a state of revolution. When the government (at most levels) were controlled by progressive Marxists, and the traditional conservatives were being “hunted down” by the “Federal Police”. This could very easily occur with a presidenty with a Democrat administration given the state of things today.
This is the ninth of a multi-part post.
Take Aways
John Titor claimed to be a time traveler.
He utilized dimensional travel to move in and out of the baseline reality.
As such, he visited our world-line to acquire some technology needed on his world-line.
That technology was produced in “our” past. Thus the idea that it involved “time travel”.
Do you want more?
I have more mores along these lines in my John Titor Index here…
You’ll not find any big banners or popups here talking about cookies and privacy notices. There are no ads on this site (aside from the hosting ads – a necessary evil). Functionally and fundamentally, I just don’t make money off of this blog. It is NOT monetized. Finally, I don’t track you because I just don’t care to.
Please kindly help me out in this effort. There is a lot of effort that goes into this disclosure. I could use all the financial support that anyone could provide. Thank you very much.
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